I was re-watching this talk <https://www.youtube....
# thinking-together
g
I was re-watching this talk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ib43q3uXQ

it has some possibly important points for this crowd. It arguably says Logo was bad, Seymour Papert was wrong, how the majorty believe programming should be taught (letting kids be self motivated and explore) is not supported by the evidence. It sights this paper http://mrbartonmaths.com/resourcesnew/8.%20Research/Explicit%20Instruction/Why%20minimal%20guidance%20instruction%20does%20not%20work.pdf
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c
I’m trying to restrain criticism, it seems like there is some interesting info in that paper. But constructivism is a philosophy, not a “this is the best way to teach x”. I think there’s a lot left out of this analysis which the authors conveniently sweep under the rug as “ideology”, as if it doesn’t merit discussion.
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o
Just a warning here, the work of Papert is not really on learning programming, but on how to learn things by "feeling" them by programming them. Like programming a turtle to draw a triangle make you feel its geometry. With the concept of Mathland, etc.
Bret Victor wrote about some misconceptions about Papert's work (http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/): "Papert explains that programming can serve as a medium in which powerful ideas can be brought within reach. but the focus, of course, must be on the powerful ideas, not programming itself"
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y
It’s also possible that neither Pappert wasn’t wrong, nor is Hermans very wrong, just that her ways of teaching work better in the Dutch culture where she tried them, and that differences between cultures sometimes matter.
g
seems the paper above is directly claiming emperical evidence doesn't support Papert's constructionist learning theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theory)
c
I think its an interesting question, thank you @gman for bringing it up
One of the Problems I see with answering it is how to measure if learning with kids "works" or doesn't. In Paperts book Mindstorms he explains some interesting aspects of his vision. Later in the book he also has this example of Samba school as an example of a learning environment. I think, or at least it seems to me that she took him too "literal" or too constructivist - dogmatic. Which is never a good idea. I I still think Papert and his work have valuable lessons in them. But for her as for a very very very large part of society its just too much of a leap from existing culture.
Paperts words in Mindstorms regarding - Computer Cultures are real. But its not limited to Computers current "Mainstream" Civilization Cultures does quite a bad job at acknowledging its biases towards certain tendencies. So a bias towards explanation might not be easily spotted but still be there. I will just point to some effort which does also lean towards more self-directed learning. and these are SOLES such as proposed by Sugata Mitra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Organised_Learning_Environment
d
When I "taught myself programming", a big part of that was reading good explanations. When I was happy in school, it was because I was given good explanations. But I also constructed the knowledge in my own mind; I built mental models and spent time alone thinking about things.