Hello everyone, My name is Hemi Edwards. I'm a co...
# introduce-yourself
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Hello everyone, My name is Hemi Edwards. I'm a computing and technology enthusiast from Aotearoa/New Zealand. I am indigenous and belong to the Rongowhakaata tribe of the Maori. We occupy our ancestral lands on the East Coast of Aotearoa/New Zealand, though we have lost much in the process of colonization. We have too gained much from our engagement with the rest of the world. For most of us our primary language is English but there have been efforts to revitalize our indigenous language of Te Reo Maori, for the last 50 years. Many other indigenous peoples see our success as an inspiration for the rejuvenation of their own traditional languages and I believe that digital technologies offer much to support this mission. Speaking English grants us opportunities to meaningfully engage with the wider work, especially in forums like this where we can learn about new possibilities and ways to think and interact with the physical world. I have been familiar with Bret Victor's work for some years now and have been excited about the potential for these new approaches to make computer interactions more meaningful, embodied, and accessible than currently. This is really important especially when it comes to economically deprived and socially marginalized communities like my people, who lost much from colonization and whose experience in the traditional school system was specifically intended to stunt our development as individuals and as a people. This has had ongoing generational impacts for my people. Language revitalization is just one aspect of current efforts to close the gaps in terms of learning achievement, equitable economic participation, and development of personal and social capacity.
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Welcome! Glad to have you with us. I would love to see more imagination in technology coming from sources of anti-colonialism. There's a genuinely important struggle happening that's been going on since the birth of computers–between the kind of mechanical/colonialist mindset and the organicist/indigenous mindset. John Von Neumann vs Norbert Wiener at the dawn of computing tells a lot of what was to come. Our technology doesn't have to reduce us to machines, but when you see the world mechanically, that's what happens. Anyway, your efforts sound great, and I'd be happy to chat about whatever you're working on more.
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Thanks so much for your welcome @Russell Leggett Probably a decade back when I read Bret Victor's work I also came across the thinking of Ron Eglash, who is an academic mathematician, and Professor of Information Technology, whose interests intersect with cybernetics, youth culture, mathematics, information technology, and computing architectures. He found some interesting parallels between the development of different computing architectures (analog, digital, and hybrid) and the evolution of distinct youth subcultures (hippie, New Age, hiphop). My own culture is somewhat of a hybrid. We use both analog (continuous, flowing) spiral motifs called called the Koru common in tattoos and carvings and digital (discrete, binary), tukutuku and pakati patterns commonly used in weaving and carving. They intertwine the artistic and metaphysic dimensions of our culture. "Starting around 1987, cybernetic models again shifted; this time to a synthesis of the competing opposites. The term "stable postmodernism" is appropriate in that the move resolves both technical and social tensions of the previous sharp reversal in these information dimensions. When we last left mathematics, it had moved from the Euclidian linearity of the 1960s to the fractals and dynamical chaos of the 1970s. In the late 1980s these two approaches were brought together. This was nicely illustrated by the "multifractal" approach initiated by Uriel Frisch (Nice Observatory) and Giorgio Parisi (University of Rome) in 1985. Multifractals are shapes which cannot be characterized by a single fractal dimension. Since they have multiple dimension measures attributed to them, some of these can be whole numbers. Thus multifractals can incorporate both fractal and Euclidian structures. A similar fractal-Euclidian synthesis has developed in the use of Michael Barnsley's Iterated Function Systems (IFS). Because combinations of both fractal and Euclidian shapes can be created (based on Barnsley's "collage theorem"), by the late 1980s a corporation had been formed for commercial application to image compression (transmitting algorithms for producing the picture instead of the picture itself)." https://roneglash.org/eglash.dir/cyb/youth/youth.htm
In fact our cousins in the Maruesas developed a form of counting that combined binary with a traditional decimal system. Just like English has a few special words like a dozen for 12 and a score for 20, the Mangarevan language has special words for large groups. But their special counting words are all decimal numbers multiplied by powers of two, which are 1, 2, 4, 8 … . Specifically, takau equals 10; paua equals 20; tataua, 40; and varu, 80. Those big numbers are useful for keeping track of collections of valuable items, such as coconuts, that come in large numbers. Bender and Beller realized that the Mangarevan counting system makes it possible to use binary arithmetic for calculations of large numbers, they report today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in a paper that even nonexperts will enjoy reading. https://www.science.org/content/article/polynesians-may-have-invented-binary-math
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@Hemi Edwards this could be of your interest https://learn.nikau.io/courses/course-v1:Nikau+TF2+2025_T4/about
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Hi @Alex Bender That's a cool initiative. I actually had seen an interview with Julian Oliver on one of our public media outlets, not so long ago. I have been personally exploring the local first and peer to peer software paradigms, because of many of the issues that Julian identifies, but with the traditional client/server paradigm there still remains the issue of system persistence, if the admin team breaks down, then the system goes down too. That's a major problem in the gaming scene at the moment. Local first software and peer to peer frameworks like libp2p mitigates that risk significantly. Naturally there are still lots of useful tools that are developed under the traditional client/server architecture paradigm, so it will take some time to develop local-first p2p tools to replace them. I'm actually working on a workforce skills development provider for indigenous youth in my community to provide them with highly demanded skills that prepares them for a rapidly changing economy, that offers them cultural sovereignty and economic security not available elsewhere. I'm currently talking with a math education researcher who developed a culturally relevant mathematics education pedagogy and have corresponded with Ron Eglash about developing something similar that teaches computing principles. https://tinyurl.com/4kxr36v9 https://csdt.org/ The Bobbie Maths teaching method is physically embodied and conducted in groups so I thought that perhaps some of the tech that Bret Victor developed for Dynamicland would be really valuable for supporting it.
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Warm welcome @Hemi Edwards!!
@Russell Leggett Totally agree here, I'd love to see more discourse and imagination around this topic. I've been collecting various essays/resources on anti-colonial/post-colonial computing, if there's interest I can definitely organize and share them more formally! (and I'd love to gather more from folks here) For example, for me one of the most radical visions of computing is Jon Corbett's work on Indigitalization

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK_Ho57GWsgā–¾

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@Christopher Shank thanks, I'm gonna check this out
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@Christopher Shank. That sent my mind down all kinds of tangents. My people have a similar conception of time to that held by the First Nations peoples of North American. We have a whakatauki or proverb, which says, Kia whakatōmuri te haere whakamua, which translates as, "I walk backwards into the future with my eyes focused on my past' "This whakataukÄ« or ā€˜proverb’ speaks to Māori perspectives of time, where the past, the present and the future are viewed as intertwined, and life as a continuous cosmic process. Within this continuous cosmic movement, time has no restrictions – it is both past and present. The past is central to and shapes both present and future identity. From this perspective, the individual carries their past into the future. The strength of carrying one’s past into the future is that ancestors are ever present, existing both within the spiritual realm and in the physical, alongside the living as well as within the living" https://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/entities/publication/d7b6cf3c-4d4e-4f71-86f5-8fa54c905bd8 I was excited to read a book by the Australian philosopher Huw Price, which speculated that time's arrow that leads from the past to the present, and future may not be absolute, but actually allow for the future to impact the present, especially through quantum mechanics. So he's basically vindicating the intuitions of my ancestors. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/times-arrow-and-archimedes-point-9780195100952?cc=nz&lang=en&# New developments in theoretical physics appear to confirm Huw Price's conjectures. "ā€œThe surprising part of this project was that even after making the standard simplifying assumption to our equations describing open quantum systems, the equations still behaved the same way whether the system was moving forwards or backwards in time,ā€ says first author Thomas Guff." https://tinyurl.com/unhhn4yy I myself got had the intuition that consciousness is underpinned by quantum mechanics and properties like superposition and entanglement, which I speculated allowed for humans in particular to project themselves into the future. I mean how is it that we can imagine a future we want, coordinate with other people, and take action to allow us to actually intersect in the same space at a specific point in time? There is increasing evidence to support this theory too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiuqsrezVf0ā–¾

While I am not a computer engineer, I was fortunate enough to secure a job at the Strong AI Lab during the pandemic, after engaging in a conversation about the impending impacts of AI technology and automation on my people with my former boss Professor Michael Witbrock who created a job specifically for me. My role was primarily on the policy aspect of AI and engaging with the community, especially indigenous Maori. I no longer work there, but I have maintained a connection to the lab and former colleagues. We've talked about various possible opportunities for collaboration, though nothing has actually eventuated yet. https://www.ai.ac.nz/ More recently I came across a Linkedin post of someone who was concerned with the impact that AI tools like ChatGPT will have on the learning ability and educational performance of students that use it. I had an intuition that indigenous peoples are all too familiar with the effects of the introduction of new technologies for communication and sharing of knowledge. The prioritization of literacy, all but destroyed our oral cultures and disrupted cultural practices that had enabled the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom over thousands of years. This was the explicit aim of the colonial government of this country which they enacted through the Tohunga Suppression Acts. The law allowed the government to prosecute practitioners of traditional healing arts and divination. The legislation was explicitly discriminatory, because there was no such legislation that targeted European practitioners of medicine or astrology, which was very popular at the time. The purpose was very clear https://tinyurl.com/yc6u4cc8 I was curious whether anyone else had similar thoughts and I was really excited to come across Lynne Kelly's and Tyson Yunkaporta's work on reviving embodies systems of knowledge memorization and recall, that my ancestors also practiced prior to colonization and the suppression of our tohunga or wise men. https://tinyurl.com/mpmkykz9 I speculated whether artificial intelligence could be used to aid in the acquisition of these skills or enhance our capabilities beyond what even our ancestors capable of. I randomly discovered that I was presaged in my speculations by a techno-utopian psychologist and computing researcher Warren Brodey, who was a contemporary of Minsky and Paper. He built the Environmental Ecology Lab just down the road from MIT in Boston. The distinction between augmentation and enrichment, especially resonates with me and I think would really appeal to Bret Victor too, if my interpretation of his work is accurate. "The distinction between the two paradigms is subtle, but crucial. Augmentation is like using GPS to navigate unknown terrain: it helps us get more done, faster. Yet the technology drives the productivity boost, not us. Such gains are fleeting; without technological crutches such as our GPS-enabled mobile phones, we are as helpless as before. Enhancement, on the other hand, leverages technology to develop new skills. Imagine honing an innate sense of direction through advanced memory techniques or learning to read natural signs and celestial patterns. In essence, augmentation deskills us in the name of efficiency, while enhancement upskills us, fostering a richer interaction with the world. This fundamental difference shapes our integration of technology, determining whether we become passive operators or creative artisans." https://mondediplo.com/2024/08/07ai-cold-war I am personally of a mind, that artificial intelligence is a powerful enabling technology for indigenous peoples. We are inundated by a dominant, alien culture and forced to negotiate the world on their terms. Engaging with abstract concepts like property, the law, markets, and institutions, that are completely foreign to us and yet they materially impact us. I believe that AI could enable our people to engage with this world on a more equal footing and that we bring a lot of value that could enrich the development of a technology like artificial intelligence. I'm particularly intrigued about how languages and culture fundamentally affect how we think. "Follow me to Pormpuraaw, a small Aboriginal community on the western edge of Cape York, in northern Australia. I came here because of the way the locals, the Kuuk Thaayorre, talk about space. Instead of words like "right," "left," "forward," and "back," which, as commonly used in English, define space relative to an observer, the Kuuk." https://tinyurl.com/yr7snbpj "The Yupno, a team of researchers has found, relate time to the river that dominates their life. The past is water that has already flowed by, while the future is represented by its source, which for them, lies uphill." https://phys.org/news/2012-06-terrain-papua-guinea-tribe.html
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These are great threads to follow!
The contrast between Brodey, the psychiatrist, and Negroponte, the architect, is striking: Brodey assumed people genuinely desired change and perpetual becoming, while Negroponte aimed to understand and fulfil our immediate needs. Brodey saw computers as enablers of transformation; Negroponte, and later Silicon Valley, viewed them as tools for predicting and satisfying our existing, though unstated, wants.
Their philosophies diverged sharply. Negroponte focused on building quirky, eccentric machines, while Brodey prioritised creating quirky, eccentric humans. Despite writing a seminal piece on ā€˜intelligent environments’ in 1967, Brodey insisted such environments couldn’t exist without people. To him, ā€˜intelligence’ was never a quality to be attributed solely to machines.
Brodey stood out from the rest of the 1960s computer establishment for another reason. While his peers viewed AI as a tool for human augmentation – machines taking over mundane tasks to boost productivity – Brodey envisioned something deeper. He championed human enhancement, a concept that pursues goals other than productivity and efficiency (5).
The distinction between the two paradigms is subtle, but crucial. Augmentation is like using GPS to navigate unknown terrain: it helps us get more done, faster. Yet the technology drives the productivity boost, not us. Such gains are fleeting; without technological crutches such as our GPS-enabled mobile phones, we are as helpless as before. Enhancement, on the other hand, leverages technology to develop new skills. Imagine honing an innate sense of direction through advanced memory techniques or learning to read natural signs and celestial patterns. In essence, augmentation deskills us in the name of efficiency, while enhancement upskills us, fostering a richer interaction with the world. This fundamental difference shapes our integration of technology, determining whether we become passive operators or creative artisans.
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Yeh, pretty inspiring for a path not followed, but definitely exploring how Brodey's ideas could be synthesized with those of Bret Victor and integrated into a framework and tech stack that I'm currently developing for a project that 'm working on. Would be keen to discuss and collaborate with likeminded folks from here.
Anyone want to join me here? I just found this app https://tryquiet.org/
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The Le Monde article is great! I'd love to hear more about your work @Hemi Edwards (there are monthly virtual meetings were folks do so https://feelingofcomputing.slack.com/archives/C01932BJGE8/p1758751659998419)
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@Christopher Shank Thanks. I was thrilled to have stumbled across that article, because the traditional conception of "Artificial Intelligence didn't resonate with me at all. I actually found it profoundly alienating, though I was really fortunate to have the chance to work in such an open work environment at the Strong AI Lab at the University of Auckland, where my former boss was really accepting and supportive of my divergent thinking, despite having worked in AI since the 1980s initially at Cyc and later at the IBM Watson Research Centre.
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@Hemi Edwards ah wow, so you went deep down the symbolic AI rabbit hole
I actually think logic and constraints etc are still undervalued in software/tech. Too much hype and under delivery. But I think in the right places it’s still magic
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@Russell Leggett Unfortunatley my boss didn't really get so much into neurosymbolic AI, though I think we would have gained a lot from it. I saw a reference to a new IBM Watson initiative that combines neurosymbolic AI with LLMs, but I don't currently have my glasses and I couldn't find it in my favorites.
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@Hemi Edwards yeah, that's too bad. IIRC Cyc was ontology based, right? - it was all about logic
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Yes my understanding is that is was Ontology based. Back in 2021 or so I proposed to my boss the idea of combining LLMs inspired by GPT with the traditional symbolic methods of AI to build a new modern incarnation of the old expert systems. I was just a research assistant at the time and he had many other commitments so the conversation never went anywhere. On the subject of ontologies, my friend Gerry Gleason from Chicago studied under the former Chilean Minister of Treasury in the Allende administration before Pinochet's coup. He'd been the one to spearhead the Project Cybercyn distributed computer management system. https://gerry.decko.org/Permanent_Domains_of_Human_Concern https://tinyurl.com/yjd3uw2r I'm looking to use an existing economic ontology called Valueflows to develop a distributed value production, exchange, and coordination platform to help my people develop and thrive economically when we have traditionally been immiserated and impoverished by colonization. I'm looking to combine it with a knowledge management app called Anytype and local AI orchestration to enable the creation of autonomous economic agents which aid humans in the loop with economic management and coordination tasks. https://www.valueflo.ws/
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Oh man, that 70’s style. I’ll have to check this out.
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Yeh looks like the set of Star Trek, but it was actually the operations room of a major national economy.
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> Enhancement, on the other hand, leverages technology to develop new skills Interesting! One recent effort I've seen that (IIUC) leans towards enhancement is https://notes.andymatuschak.org/Mnemonic_medium > Augmentation deskills us in the name of efficiency, while enhancement upskills us, fostering a richer interaction with the world. I feel that's unfairly harsh to "augmentation" as envisioned by e.g. Engelbart, or Bret Victor. But the distinction is interesting to think about. P.S. Dune series, if you zoom out including Brian Herbert's pre/sequels is very much about enhancement, in the aftermath of violent war on augmentation. It paints a pretty bleak future though.
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Funny that you brought up Dune. I never personally got into it, but I am familiar with the setting. and yeh the Butlerian Jihad is ironically salient to events of today and my own work. I am from New Zealand where Samuel Butler published his article Darwin Among the Machines about the potential for machines to subjugate humanity as we have traditionally done to each other, animlas, and more recently machines. He also started writing his classic novel, Erewhon here too. I worked for the StrongAI Lab or SAIL at the University of Auckland here in Aotearoa/New Zealand, ad my approach to AI is more informed by both Warren Brodey and Bret Victor.
Currently I'm working on building a general purpose projectional editor for general purpose software development and AI applications, which I am building from open source components, especially the Graphte graphics editor with its Graphene graph language and the Pax UI framework. I was already exploring the possibility of building a projectional editor inspired by Bred Victor's thoughtpieces Learnable Programming, Media for Thinking the Unthinkable, and Humane Representations of Thought which I read years ago and found incredibly resonant and inspiring. I realized the developers of Graphite had already built one though its currently focused on graphics, I think it can easily be adapted for general purpose software development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUbcwUC5lxAā–¾