I ve been thinking a lot about apprenticeships over the last

Question

I ve been thinking a lot about apprenticeships over the last year and specifically the lack of apprenticeships in tech My mental model of apprenticeships is primary formed around how they apply to the arts people learning a craft from a single practitioner who has worked their life to develop a personal style or system But apprenticeships also exist in trade maybe even more so Fundamentally apprenticeships facilitate knowledge transfer all industries can benefit from that no So I wonder why apprenticeships are far less common in software Is it because so many industry vets were themselves self taught and so that mindset has lingered Is it that so much of our industry is focused on access democratization and open sharing of information Could it be that we need to train more software engineers than we have hours in the day and that need for more qualified minds has pushed us beyond the 1 on 1 learning paradigm and towards bootcamps etc Maybe so much of software and the knowledge around it is already accessible so apprenticeships are just overkill That said there are still pockets of software where subject matter expertise and knowledge silos outweigh what is either 1 commonly taught in schools or 2 generally available Software doesn t have the same requirements around professional certifications could that be at play Generally do you all think there s value in apprenticeships or should we continue to move in the other direction entirely teach the masses In that sense I could see the argument that apprenticeships border on nepotism and are actually a form of gatekeeping Have any of you been part of a formal apprenticeship on either end If so what conditions made that possible

Eli Mellen · Answer

gt Generally do you all think there s value in apprenticeships or should we continue to move in the other direction entirely teach the masses Why not both I think they meet different needs and communities They re not 2 ways of approaching the same thing

Eli Mellen · Answer

there are also historical examples of one phasing into the other

Lu Wilson · Answer

We have a person starting an apprenticeship with us soon It s through a local link here in London Seems like a great scheme Previous years have been very successful but unfortunately this year we re one of the only companies taking on board an apprentice from them I think it s one of the first things to drop with budget cuts It s a shame A big part of it is introducing tech to a wider range of demographics By appealing to the masses we run the risk of attracting more of the same I hope the scheme can find some more industry links for the next cohort

Gregg Irwin · Answer

gt I think there s enormous value in mentoring formal or not I ve had many mentors in different areas and value them highly I try to give back as well mentoring as best I can gt gt Why don t we have it in software My personal opinion 100 biased and anecdotal having done this professionally for a bit over 30 years now is devs don t want to be mentored Some young people fresh to learning the craft are open to it but not all And while skepticism is important ego is the main barrier gt gt As an industry we also don t ask about it when grooming new recruits We don t chat socially and say Who is your favorite coder or designer from the 60s 70s etc What UI from the past do you love and why What are the most important timeless values in software to you We don t learn from other great artists stand on the shoulders of giants and carry things forward to the extent artists do It s one of our major failings

Greg Bylenok · Answer

Dave Hoover and Corey Haines have a lot to say on this subject Their two organizations Obtiva and 8th Light experimented with apprenticeships quite heavily around 2010 and Dave literally wrote the book on software apprenticeships Apprenticeship Patterns Happy to put you in touch if interested

Jack Rusher · Answer

100 Mentorship apprenticeship is very powerful and under utilized in tech culture

irvin · Answer

I think it s an inertia thing where it s easier to do things the way most people have been doing things For a new company that is probably focused on just surviving trying a new model of training like apprenticeships might seem unnecessarily risky For a mature company the existing way of doing things could be too ingrained and the incentives for any individual to change things might not be there Also in tech there s a perception and reality people change jobs more frequently so putting a lot of investment into an individual s initial education would probably not be worth it unless that person had to stay at the company for a certain period of time

Marcelle Rusu (they/them) · Answer

I really do think so especially with people starting their first programming job remotely its tough There s another aspect I encountered is I don t know how to mentor people properly amp I realized I don t think many people do There s no gold standard I can point to amp say we should do it this way More so when I ve gone and done this myself I essentially got told to stop from my managers but never got provided tools ideas to do it better Especially important for those in under represented groups even more with low confidence My biggest concern is capable people getting completely turned off tech due to cultural problems I ve experienced it and I know many who have

Walker Griggs · Answer

Lots to respond to gt there are also historical examples of one phasing into the other < Eli Mellen> I d love more context here if you have some gt We have a person starting an apprenticeship with us soon < Lu Wilson> in your opinion where s the line between internship and apprenticeship I ask only because you used the first person plural here so I d imagine your apprentice will learn from a few folks and receive instruction from a team gt devs don t want to be mentored Some young people fresh to learning the craft are open to it but not all And while skepticism is important ego is the main barrier This is an interesting callout < Gregg Irwin> I hadn t considered the ego part I try to keep a beginners mindset at all times but probably fail at it more often than not I ll have to think more on this I think you re digging at a cultural issue that I ve noticed but never formally identified gt Dave Hoover and Corey Haines have a lot to say on this subject Happy to put you in touch if interested I haven t read this but certainly will put it on the reading list Might even reach out for that conversation if I have follow ups thanks

Walker Griggs · Answer

gt Also in tech there s a perception and reality people change jobs more frequently so putting a lot of investment into an individual s initial education I recently moved into a fairly specialized space video encoders and infra and found that more folks have either worked with each other in past or at least know about each others work From the few folks I ve talked to about knowledge transfer there seems to be a pretty real fear that young people aren t investing the time necessary to learn the industry In that sense people are willing to teach you even if you do leave because it benefits the industry as whole plus you might boomarang back at some point In a way I feel this connects to the earlier point about ego The I don t need to be an apprentice when I can bounce between companies every 2 5 and maximize profit

Walker Griggs · Answer

< Marcelle Rusu they them > so many good points to unpack gt I don t know how to mentor people properly amp I realized I don t think many people do Did you have a mentor yourself I wonder if this is a chicken and egg problem Potential mentors themselves need a good example to emulate What in your mind does a proper mentorship look like gt More so when I ve gone and done this myself I essentially got told to stop from my managers disappointed ugh I m sorry Mentorship programs don t start and end between mentor and mentee there has to be a support system to facilitate that relationship gt My biggest concern is capable people getting completely turned off tech due to cultural problems I ve noticed most mentorship or apprentice program in software only start when you re in the door On the other hand trade apprenticeships are paired with school and take you from square 0 to 100 Do you think there s room for industry vets to reach outside of the industry to students considering CS or broadly people interesting in software

Lu Wilson · Answer

It s an apprenticeship scheme which is a <https www apprenticeships gov uk |national government thing> here I don t know what the difference is between that and internship as I suspect it might mean different things in different English speaking countries Apprenticeship just means that it s officially recognised here Whether it s officially led by one person or many I d certainly expect them to learn from multiple people Different people have different skills and backgrounds and being exposed to that variety of people is a huge benefit of schemes like this In my original career not tech I did a similar thing

Marcelle Rusu (they/them) · Answer

< Walker Griggs> gt Did you have a mentor yourself I wonder if this is a chicken and egg problem Potential mentors themselves need a good example to emulate What in your mind does a proper mentorship look like I didn t and I completely agree I m still trying to figure out what a proper mentor looks like but I d think it d have to incorporate the following with some frequency work with the mentor on something pair programming talk through problems mentee is facing amp get encouragement + advice gt I ve noticed most mentorship or apprentice program in software only start when you re in the door On the other hand trade apprenticeships are paired with school and take you from square 0 to 100 Do you think there s room for industry vets to reach outside of the industry to students considering CS or broadly people interesting in software Would love to do this and I think many would but I wouldn t know how On another note my sister is in planning and after you start the job you need to go through a mentorship to get to a certain title It s mostly just talking + encouragement from what I know but I think the encouragement is at least as important as technical if not more

Gregg Irwin · Answer

< Walker Griggs> I ve been fortunate to work with may types of people around the need love of building software Where my ego comment comes from leans heavily toward those broad brush here who are off the charts smart as engineers but struggle on the social empathy human side I think I m somewhere in the middle ^ People in this group are interested in constructive collaboration learning together That s why I feel safe posting things that may be flat out wrong or make me look ignorant We re all somewhere on this journey via different paths Some of my favorite memories are working with someone who was way smarter than me on the math code side but also able to meet me in the middle on the need to make things accessible to normal devs Many times though working with people so much smarter than me on the machine side is tough and even at my advanced age I can doubt the value of my experience and design values I ve also been on the other side where maybe I wasn t so great at being mentored because I thought I was right ^ A direct analog for me is theatre When I direct it s very intuitive and comes from my passion for it just like software And just like software sometimes the most talented actor just won t take direction Sometimes it still works out but it can also make the whole show less than it could be because the vision doesn t hang together when one or more pieces don t mesh this is true for the tech aspects like lighting and set design as well As for how to mentor I can only say I ve had some great ones who probably taught me by example and osmosis Don t try to mentor everyone Find the right mentees who have a spark and just share your love for your craft with them Be the student as much as the teacher I probably learn more than I teach because seeing through new eyes make you question and try to understand more

Máté Hidvégi · Answer

When I started out as a junior developer I was yearning to be mentored But I received the message from my leads that I do a great job and I should strive to be more independent do things my own way At my next job I worked in a team where I was the only one with a programming degree and experience so again there could not have been any mentoring And at my last job I was working with great people and my leads were open to mentoring me But here I experienced that they did not have a talent for it yet they did not really listen to my problems just giving me general good advice For me that resembles more like watching youtube videos about programming then an actual two way discussion When I tried to teach people younger then me I also noticed the ego problems that < Gregg Irwin> mentioned A lot of times young developers just want to play around with their own solutions and they don t want to deal with learning something Also I met people who openly said they are doing this for the money and they don t care about learning if they don t need to And of course developers mainly care about technologies libraries tools and programming tricks Its very hard to have discussions about the human side of the job communication skills psychological safety etc although these can have a lot more impact on day to day work and these are the things that are not taught in programming courses

Jack Rusher · Answer

gt Also I met people who openly said they are doing this for the money and they don t care about learning if they don t need to While I understand the drive to maximize the rate at which one can trade labor for capital I do not enjoy working with people who approach their work their lives from this perspective disappointed

Walker Griggs · Answer

I noticed pretty early on in undergrad that my peers could be roughly broken down into categories those who were in it purely for the money those who were interested but not convinced that software was their calling those who ate drank bled and obsessed over software I also found that people s success and happiness in their career was strongly correlated Nothing groundbreaking about that observation and it can probably be applied to most fields of study BUT I also noticed that ego in that last category could run rampant in myself even I think mentors actually serve to reduce that ego to show their mentees just how big the pond really is You don t know what you don t know But once you know how much there is you don t you re forced to either adopt that beginners mindset good or dig your heels in bad

Walker Griggs · Answer

gt It s an apprenticeship scheme which is a here Apprenticeship just means that it s officially recognised here < Lu Wilson> I really like this I ll give it a read through I didn t know that is was govt supported

Gregg Irwin · Answer

For me a related area to mentoring is community leadership I ve seen many people and manners of interaction It helped me see that someone I ll call out the especially smart ones the elite didn t just resist me or my ideas but almost anyone They could also be hard on those of us not as gifted or adept Encouraging empathy here and trying to get them to do the mentoring has helped at times Not always but I love love love to see someone else get that big Thank You for their help and seeing it affect their future interactions We can all fall back on habits of course but it s a journey right And this empathy has to go both ways because we get some very special people in the modern view of neurodiversity and dealing with that is hard as well We all need each other Some of us are deeply connected this craft but we re still social creatures with all that history in play as well

Gregg Irwin · Answer

Living my own example as a re newbie here I m flooding thoughts out that I haven t had a chance to get out otherwise so I appreciate everyone s patience with that ^

Jack Rusher · Answer

A nearly ten year old artifact of mentoring in this case in Clojure

Gregg Irwin · Answer

I m reminded of Beautiful Code and Beautiful Architecture which I really enjoy and think the idea should be much more widespread Exercism is a site that works along the lines of mentoring at the small scale of functions and problems

Gregg Irwin · Answer

Here s an old gist I made which falls somewhere in two venn circles of mentoring and literate programming <https gist github com greggirwin 38883ca5109175a60896d2f406ee49f6>

Gregg Irwin · Answer

Gist updated for a recent change in Red for anyone who wants to run it and also updated the code only version at <https gist github com greggirwin 6745b96d0531ee88f5755d6e62515a9d>