Walker Griggs
07/10/2023, 7:23 PMEli Mellen
07/10/2023, 7:44 PMGenerally, do you all think there’s value in apprenticeships or should we (continue to) move in the other direction entirely -- teach the masses?Why not both? I think they meet different needs and communities. They’re not 2 ways of approaching the same thing.
Lu Wilson
07/10/2023, 7:49 PMGregg Irwin
07/10/2023, 10:35 PMI think there's enormous value in mentoring, formal or not. I've had many mentors, in different areas, and value them highly. I try to give back as well, mentoring as best I can.
Why don't we have it in software? My personal opinion, 100% biased and anecdotal, having done this professionally for a bit over 30 years now is... devs don't want to be mentored. Some young people, fresh to learning the craft are open to it, but not all. And while skepticism is important, ego is the main barrier.
As an industry, we also don't ask about it when grooming new recruits. We don't chat socially and say "Who is your favorite coder or designer from the 60s, 70s,..." etc. "What UI from the past do you love and why?" "What are the most important, timeless values in software, to you?" We don't learn from other great artists, stand on the shoulders of giants, and carry things forward to the extent artists do. It's one of our major failings.
Greg Bylenok
07/11/2023, 3:08 AMJack Rusher
07/11/2023, 7:08 AMirvin
07/11/2023, 12:28 PMMarcelle Rusu (they/them)
07/11/2023, 3:46 PMWalker Griggs
07/11/2023, 4:42 PMthere are also historical examples of one phasing into the other@Eli Mellen I'd love more context here if you have some.
We have a person starting an apprenticeship with us soon!@Lu Wilson in your opinion, where's the line between internship and apprenticeship? I ask only because you used the first person plural here, so I'd imagine your apprentice will learn from a few folks and receive instruction from a team.
devs don't want to be mentored. Some young people, fresh to learning the craft are open to it, but not all. And while skepticism is important, ego is the main barrier.This is an interesting callout @Gregg Irwin. I hadn't considered the ego part. I try to keep a beginners mindset at all times but probably fail at it more often than not. I'll have to think more on this -- I think you're digging at a cultural issue that I've noticed but never formally identified
Dave Hoover and Corey Haines have a lot to say on this subject.... Happy to put you in touch if interestedI haven't read this but certainly will put it on the reading list. Might even reach out for that conversation if I have follow-ups -- thanks!
Also in tech there's a perception (and reality?) people change jobs more frequently so putting a lot of investment into an individual's initial educationI recently moved into a fairly specialized space (video encoders and infra) and found that more folks have either worked with each other in past or at least know about each others work. From the few folks I've talked to about knowledge transfer, there seems to be a pretty real fear that 'young people' aren't investing the time necessary to learn the industry. In that sense, people are willing to teach you (even if you do leave) because it benefits the industry as whole -- plus you might boomarang back at some point. In a way I feel this connects to the earlier point about ego. The "I don't need to be an apprentice when I can bounce between companies every 2.5 and maximize profit"
I don't know how to mentor people properly & I realized I don't think many people do.Did you have a mentor yourself? I wonder if this is a 'chicken and egg' problem. Potential mentors themselves need a good example to emulate. What in your mind does a "proper" mentorship look like?
More so, when I've gone and done this myself, I essentially got told to stop from my managers😞 ugh, I'm sorry. Mentorship programs don't start and end between mentor and mentee, there has to be a support system to facilitate that relationship.
My biggest concern is capable people getting completely turned off tech due to cultural problemsI've noticed most mentorship or apprentice program in software only start when you're in the door. On the other hand, trade apprenticeships are paired with school and take you from square 0 to 100. Do you think there's room for industry vets to reach outside of the industry to students considering CS or broadly 'people interesting in software'.
Lu Wilson
07/11/2023, 5:01 PMMarcelle Rusu (they/them)
07/11/2023, 5:27 PMDid you have a mentor yourself? I wonder if this is a 'chicken and egg' problem. Potential mentors themselves need a good example to emulate. What in your mind does a "proper" mentorship look like?I didn't, and I completely agree. I'm still trying to figure out what a "proper" mentor looks like, but I'd think it'd have to incorporate the following with some frequency. - work with the mentor on something - pair programming (?) - talk through problems mentee is facing & get encouragement + advice
I've noticed most mentorship or apprentice program in software only start when you're in the door. On the other hand, trade apprenticeships are paired with school and take you from square 0 to 100. Do you think there's room for industry vets to reach outside of the industry to students considering CS or broadly 'people interesting in software'.Would love to do this and I think many would, but I wouldn't know how. On another note: my sister is in planning and after you start the job, you need to go through a mentorship to get to a certain title. It's mostly just talking + encouragement from what I know, but I think the encouragement is at least as important as technical if not more.
Gregg Irwin
07/12/2023, 2:29 AMMáté Hidvégi
07/13/2023, 11:23 AMJack Rusher
07/13/2023, 3:47 PMAlso I met people who openly said they are doing this for the money, and they don’t care about learning if they don’t need to.While I understand the drive to maximize the rate at which one can trade labor for capital, I do not enjoy working with people who approach their work (their lives!) from this perspective. 😞
Walker Griggs
07/13/2023, 4:46 PMIt's an "apprenticeship scheme", which is a national government thing here. Apprenticeship' just means that it's officially recognised here.@Lu Wilson I really like this. I'll give it a read through. I didn't know that is was govt supported
Gregg Irwin
07/13/2023, 5:45 PMJack Rusher
07/14/2023, 3:30 PMGregg Irwin
07/14/2023, 6:54 PM