<urbit.org/primer> looks amazing! Seems like they ...
# thinking-together
s
urbit.org/primer looks amazing! Seems like they made a lot of progress since the last I checked
p
one of the things i've always found unsettling about ethereum and urbit is that they both embed these really powerful capitalist notions of distinct ownership into their models
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in addition to the well-documented problems of pseudo-currency speculation it's just not clear to me that this is an obviously central feature of a distributed computing environment
there are certainly use-cases for incentivizing someone else to run your code while your computer is offline -- perhaps trading in a commodities market or watching for particular news stories -- but it seems more common that we want to run our own software locally on our own computers. i want to organize a soccer game, balance my chequebook, calculate the risk of a catastrophic asteroid impact in the next 20 years. it's not clear to me that any of these systems are well-suited to that kind of work.
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s
Agreed! I usually just ignore the crypto stuff and read for the PL stuff in urbit and IPFS
p
the departure post from Curtis Yarvin is quite interesting here.
j
Thanks for the heads-up, I hadn’t noticed these latest interesting developments in Urbit
@Peter van Hardenberg I think the use of cryptocurrency to fuel computation (ETH) or storage (FileCoin) is an interesting experiment in answering the question of how to support computation processes or preservation of data that is valued by a society, without some of the pathologies and failure modes of the current models. Right now many large-scale computations & data aggregations are kept alive by VC-funded corporations (which often leads to a personal data exploiting model) or motivated individuals (which depends on the continued good health and motivation of the individual). Attaching a currency directly to these processes is one way that society could express “we want this computation/data to be preserved”, in such a way that when that interest dwindles, the shared resource is effectively garbage-collected. (There’s also the related topic of how society expresses support for particular code to be maintained and evolved, on which Nadia Eghbal has done excellent work.)
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I do believe that there are many valuable data aggregations and computations that make more sense to be shared by many users than (expensively) re-derived by every individual’s computing node: for instance, web search indices, weather predictions, public transport routing graphs and live data caches (my own current field)
p
I don't think all cryptocurrencies are necessarily unethical, but I don't think we should redesign the fundament of computing to encode ownership and introduce scarcity. We swim in an ocean of underutilized computers. Perhaps there's an option to better enable the free collaboration humans are already so good at? Think of SETI at Home, the protein folding project, heck, even the vast community of media pirates sharing their favorite content with one another.
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j
I’m with you in terms of wanting to look for collaborative models. That said, CPU cycles (or rather the power to run them), storage space, and human attention are all finite. We run out of battery & flash space on our personal computers, and certainly it incurs some mental overhead to establish that we’re only donating our CPU cycles to folding@home and not a rogue bitcoin miner. If computation and storage are unlimited, why are there so many broken web links?
e
As Ted Nelson pointed out in his video, he was a proponent of two-way links, and this would have solved a lot of problems, however, the exponential growth of the internet was partially fueled by intentional violations of copyright. Ted comes from a writer/publisher's point of view, and from that point of view the current web architecture is a disaster. The proliferation of paywalls, and subscriptions is lamentable, and his proposal for micropayments was very sound, and if cryptocurrencies had existed at his time, it might have won the day. Anyway back to Urbit, it is a very creative concept, but there are many things best forgotten, and i am not sure it is feasible to keep track of all changes of all things for all time. That sounds like a lot of wasted storage. I think intuitively people realize that only some transactions are worth recording for posterity.
s
The aspect I find most appealing is having 'one portal' for all stuff. Currently I log into portal#1 (my laptop) - here I get my local files and apps only. One app (firefox) has me log in to portals 2, 3, 4 (gmail/gdrive, github, futureofocoding.slack.com) - each one completely siloed away - and has its own set of artifacts. I have various systems in place to sync and various rudimentary import/export mechanisms to move stuff around between these portals, and the nature of computing/programming is very different too. On the web, every app is in fact a new portal to a new siloed world. I hope we have have one world where all artifacts are possible, can interlink etc and we can program here too.
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g
having one infrastructure with access to everything sounds impossible to me. It sounds impossible because it would require all programmers to agree on what is the correct way to do things and to never add anything new without years of committees of getting everyone's agreements that this new thing is being done the "right" way. Portals (as defined above) seem as natural as the fact that I have different thoughts than the person sitting next to me. Those thoughts lead to different solutions and different solutions => silos.
s
Interesting counterpoint wrt portals. Perhaps we can't get rid of portals completely. But still, silos by design is one thing and often we have silos by accident - it's easier to create silos, even when I want to create open, extensible apps and features. The baseline of interoperability today is importing/exporting 'files' and rudimentary copy/paste. Can this be raised?