There's a only a bit on programming here, but I th...
# thinking-together
r
There's a only a bit on programming here, but I think the appeal of this essay will still be broad with this group. What are some of the most promising directions right now for "transformative tools for thought"? Along the lines of these examples the authors gave: "Illustrator, Google Search, Twitter, Slack, Google Docs, programmer tools" https://numinous.productions/ttft/
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k
"Illustrator, Google Search, Twitter, Slack, Google Docs" are mentioned as examples that aren't public goods. I wouldn't call any of them 'transformative' (considering the only example OP explicitly gives of the term is Hindu-Arabic numerals, which feels on a different level). Also, the phrase "programmer tools" in that quote is very odd indeed.
Here are some recent transformative tools for thought on the level of Hindu-Arabic numerals, IMO: * Typesetting (spaces between words which are arguably as important as the invention of zero and place values; punctuation marks; folios; other advances gained from the publishing industry since Gutenberg) * Double-entry book-keeping. * Tags (the idea of giving things multiple labels rather than forcing them to go into a single pigeonhole. Laborious using cross-indexing in the pre-computer era; really only took off in the post-Gmail, post-Delicious era) * Hyperlinks. Arguably just a consequence of tags becoming really cheap.
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But wow, thanks for posting this link. I've seen it several times but hadn't focused on reading it until now. I'm making an account on https://quantum.country/qcvc
i
Brainstorming Agaram-scale tools for thought is fun.. • LSD, hot showers, hammock time, and other means of shaking the tree of one's subconscious • parametric modelling, CAD, and in general 3d graphics allow a very different relationship to space and form than was possible via sculpture and drawing, in ways I can personally attest to but can't quite put my finger on (ability to scale, perhaps?) • sequential imagery, especially in comics and film, as a way of conveying narrative without linguistics • games as sophisticated systems, which allow for the conveyance of all sorts of otherwise indescribable ideas • telescopy and microscopy, history and futurism — together, these created a general awareness of the narrow scope of one's experience in life, allowing for thinking on the scale of Long Now (etc)
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r
@Kartik Agaram I'm curious about the part where you said "Illustrator, Google Search, Twitter, Slack, Google Docs" aren't "public goods". I'm assuming you mean that because they're closed-source software owned by big corporations, but I'd love to hear more about how that relates to whether they are "transformative tools"? Does being a closed-source piece of software prevent it from being a transformative tool?
While those aren't the tools I'd personally have listed, I'll try to put on the author's shoes for a minutes and give an explanation for the transformative qualities of the listed software: * Illustrator: First time graphics could be drawn digitally (rather than programmed). * Google Search: Fastest access to information. * Twitter: Large-scale access for an individual to broadcast out information and for other interested people to be able to find them. * Slack: Real-time communication with inline files, combined with features for asynchronous participation, notably extensive history. * Google Docs: Easiest way to collaborate on a document. Anyway, again not what I would have picked, but hopefully I got close to what the authors are going for.
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i
Slack: more like notionally extensive history :/
Robert Roben, your original question is a good one and I'd like to hear your answer. What would you say are some promising directions for transformative tools for thought?
k
@robenkleene I'll just quote directly from OP the only place that constructs the precise list you mentioned:
We already discussed some examples where companies have partially or totally avoided the public goods problem, tools such as: Illustrator, Google Search, Twitter, Slack, Google Docs, programmer tools, and so on.
So the list is of tools of thought that are owned by someone. I certainly agree with you about the value that each of these tools bring. All I'm saying is, if Slack and Twitter are in the top-10 list of transformative tools of thought, the human race is in far worse shape than even I think.
r
Yeah, I don’t really follow or agree with the public goods argument in the article either, the authors are using Adobe's product as an example of products that become public goods, and therefore are easy to replicate and aren’t beneficial for businesses to create. But Adobe is one of the most successful tech companies in the world, and have successfully created one of the most effective moats around their products ever. So I think the authors are mistaken on that point. They’re using one data point, Sketch and Figma, which has an alternative explanation I wrote about here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22148158 Outside of UI design, in video editing, illustration, print design, motion graphics, and photography Adobe's products are all the most popular in their category by a wide margin.
@Kartik Agaram The authors don’t have a negative opinion of them not being public goods, actually they’re saying the reverse, that them being public goods (not the products themselves, but their implementation details) is why less tools like this are developed. I disagree with that point, but it sounded were saying they actually aren’t public goods, and that transformative tools for thought should or need to be, so I was curious to here more about that
k
I don't mean to add a negative connotation either. All I'm saying is: just like in an SQL query, adding a qualifier shrinks the size of the list. The U19 champion is often not as good at any sport as the world champion.
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r
@Ivan Reese (It's Roben not Robert but np) Some examples of relatively new transformative tools for thought are Trello, ObservableHQ https://observablehq.com (I think this space hasn't really been nailed yet, this is where I want to go with https://repla.app), Figma is interesting as adding collaboration to UI design, but I think Figma's success is more a byproduct of flat UI design than anything else (I don't see them surviving if things skewed back towards skewmorphism for example), Procreate https://procreate.art definitely qualifies. Personally I think the most promising direction is creating a canonically way to share and edit multimedia documents. Today HTML is clearly the best way, but you either have to be an expert to use it, or use a specialized tool that comes with a whole bunch of baggage. There’s nothing to create and edit a multimedia document today that feels as pure as editing a bitmap with Photoshop
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I'm still reading OP, and it's super great. It seems to have 4 distinct segments, and I'm not sure why they aren't separate articles: * Description of a new tool using spaced repetition. * Spaced repetition as a new domain for tools. Its benefits and limitations. * Some examples of recent tools of thought. * Why industry doesn't invest more in tools of thought. There's at least one seam here.
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a
Check out other work by Michael Nielsen. It's great: • Thought as a Technology: http://cognitivemedium.com/tat/index.html • Striking user interfaces: http://cognitivemedium.com/striking_ui/striking_ui.html • Toward an exploratory medium for mathematics: http://cognitivemedium.com/emm/emm.html • Working Notes on Chalktalk: http://cognitivemedium.com/interfaces-1/index.html • Magic Paper: http://cognitivemedium.com/magic_paper/ • Notes on Engelbart, "Augmenting Human Intellect": http://mnielsen.github.io/notes/engelbart/engelbart.html
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n
Bidirectional links might be the most compelling tool for thought that I've seen recently, and graph databases by extension (all objects and data are connected bidirectionally). This is from my experience using Roam Research.
The tool for thought that I'd most like to see (and am working on somewhat) is a more interactive and visual way to edit the AST of a program. I'm curious what ways there are to turn 1-dimensional code (a sequence of characters/tokens) into something 2-dimensional, ideally that encodes a sense of compositionality