In the thread about the <2020 Community Survey res...
# administrivia
i
In the thread about the 2020 Community Survey results, Jack Armitage made a handful of really interesting points and suggestions about diversity. One suggestion in particular is that we could run an additional survey focused on diversity. I like this idea. I feel like we need to make a big effort to bring more people into the community, with a primary focus on women. A survey is inherently the sort of project that calls people to it, so an inclusion-focused survey would send a signal to the broader community that this is something we care about. In this thread, I'd like to workshop what that survey could ask, what the audience for the survey should be, when we should send it out, how we could best maximize impact, what we'd like the outcome to be, whether this survey could be paired with another initiative that'd also help boost diversity, etc.
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That last point, about pairing this survey with another initiative, is something I'll expand on a bit right off the bat. I don't think a survey — any survey — will improve diversity here on its own. I think we need to have more events / projects / initiatives in place before the survey goes out. The survey will (hopefully) reach people who aren't already here, making them aware that we exist, and the other initiatives will give them a reason to actually come and participate. For the women that are here but just lurk, I hope that these initiatives will give them cause to become active. Here are a few ideas. One thing I've been wanting to do is have more women as guests on the podcast. I've been working on a list of potential guests ever since I recorded my first episode with Jack Rusher. There are quite a few women devs whose work I admire, but none of them are working on an FoC-like project, so I haven't felt right inviting any of them on. This whole time, I've been quietly asking around about women who would be good guests, but I've only received 4 suggestions, and again none of them are meaningfully working on something FoC-related. This is obviously a massive blind spot for me, so going forward I'm going to make a much more overt call for women working on FoC. If you reading this know of anyone that I should interview, I'd love to know. Another project that would be a nice addition to our website — something like the Whole Code Catalog that Steve made, but collecting the important FoC projects by women. This would be an invaluable resource. One other thing that would both send a signal of interest and create an opportunity for participation would be some sort of event, like a virtual microconf, with an explicit gender-balance goal. Ideally I'd like to organize something that was all-women, but I worry that we wouldn't have enough presenters and it'd put too much pressure on the handful who did respond. I have a sincere, serious interest in making this community more welcoming for women, and having more women join and stay. I will need help.
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m
you could interview Felienne about notional machines and http://www.hedycode.com/?lang=en
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this was my favorite talk from bobkonf, you should interview her too: https://bobkonf.de/2020/startsev.html
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o
One suggestion for the podcast (already proposed by someone in the survey): Vi Hart.
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And maybe looking on the HCI side of Future of Coding? But I have no name to give right now, though.
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n
I want to echo that comment on tokenism. Let's not do anything to showcase (positively discriminate) women unless we can reasonably defend that we're legitimately supporting women. A podcast episode with a relevant female guest sounds great, but a tab on the website labelled "projects by women" feels (and will appear) tokenistic.
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We're always going to have a problem with diversity though when culture, stereotypes, product marketing, and existing institutions impart divisive forces between genders beginning in childhood. Most women are long gone before they have a chance to reach this community.
m
this would be a recommendation for a "Futures of Programming Past" style podcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronica_Dahl "is recognized as one of the 15 founders of the field of logic programming", she now seems to be working on this https://codesync.global/media/ai-for-social-responsibility-embedding-principled-guidelines-into-ai-systems-cmldn19/
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n
Ooh yes please! I don't know what kind of conversation you'd have with Veronica but I've got a few questions about the history of logic & databases that I'd pose to her. I've been trying to piece together that history recently, because my own FoC project builds upon it. I'd host the podcast episode if I was a good conversationalist 😂
i
@Nick Smith
We're always going to have a problem with diversity though when culture, stereotypes, product marketing, and existing institutions impart divisive forces between genders beginning in childhood. Most women are long gone before they have a chance to reach this community.
I agree, but the thing to remember is: we know there are women who want to be here, but don't feel welcome. They're standing at the door, looking in, and going "nah". So while I would love to explore the structural factors, we don't even need to — we have a much easier problem to solve.
I want to echo that comment on tokenism. Let's not do anything to showcase (positively discriminate) women unless we can reasonably defend that we're legitimately supporting women. A podcast episode with a relevant female guest sounds great, but a tab on the website labelled "projects by women" feels (and will appear) tokenistic.
That's a great point. Better than me making a collection like "FoC Projects By Women", would be us finding an existing woman who is making a collection like this and offering to feature her work prominently via the community, perhaps with some funding. Does that feel like a better approach?
n
Yeah, it would be awesome if there are women out there who are developing (or want to develop) that kind of network/collection, and if so we should definitely feature it.
i
Does anyone else think a diversity focused survey is a worthy pursuit, or could we make more of an impact with a different initiative? I like the fact that surveys are kind of fun to fill out, and they're inherently designed to be spread around and invite lots of people to take them. But I'm having trouble coming up with ideas for what it would ask about. What specifically do we want to learn? What can we do with that knowledge?
o
I think that a survey might be useful to see from where we start and what the community actually is right now. Maybe a survey is also a way to gather new opinions or views, because a survey is a different medium than the slack some people might use it to express themselves while they don't feel to express in the slack. I guess, at some time, when I was younger, I was to shy to allow myself to express in public in a space like this slack but a survey would have been a real opportunity. A survey brings anonymity which is a real plus for shy people.
i
So, we could ask about.. what the gender makeup of the community currently is, and whether people are in favour of diversity initiatives in general. If we came up with some specific initiatives, we could ask people whether they liked them or not. We could ask more generally whether they favoured direct interventions or preferred just removing barriers. We'd probably want a field where people could provide additional thoughts anonymously, and with the option that they not be released. If the audience for the survey is people both inside and outside the community, we probably need a repeat of the "how often do you post to the slack?" question.
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o
I am really not sure about this one, but maybe we could also ask explicitly how people perceive this community, in an anonymously open field. And if and how this blocks them from participating more. In fact it is something I would like to know, but it can be very tricky to ask the appropriate questions that lead to useful answers. So maybe we can leave this one if we don't find the good wording.
I know that the primary focus is on gender diversity, but what do you think about adding some geographical diversity aspect to it? The first survey showed that some part of the world and cultures are very underrepresented. I think this is also an important issue and it would be great if we can work also on that subject. Maybe in the new survey we can ask for ideas to work on it. Just an illustration fo what can be done: maybe we can encourage some channels in the slack dedicated to discussions in other language than english (#spanish...).
g
https://twitter.com/jeanqasaur jean yang is really smart and has been working on using programming languages to improve privacy—and also has one of my favorite papers we love talks on an axiomatic basis for computer programming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQi-6-d5ooQ

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