Renaming the community

Question

Here s a big one Apologies in advance to everyone for the unbidden rabbit hole I think we need to rename the community Future of Coding doesn t aptly reflect what this community values or the sort of work we do together We spend more time studying the past than we do dreaming about the future We don t care much about code very narrow We care more about computation broadly but also so much beyond that art and culture social dynamics systems and power physics aesthetics time games and more and how all of those things relate to the computer though even that is too narrow What we care about is very hard to pin down because it s made of up of many parts that themselves aren t pinned down The name deliberately I believe alludes to Bret Victor s talk The Future of Programming Like much of Bret s work this talk is a quietly scathing critique of the dominant culture of programming I think that that aspect of Bret s work really resonates with folks here But the name Future of Coding doesn t capture the fact that Bret was being sardonic I see lots of people taking the name too literally Speaking of taking the name literally it s really pretentious There s a real problem with self importance in startup culture and with a name like Future of Coding we sound like a bunch of growth hackers That ain t us This is the sort of topic where we ll probably never all agree on a single thing Ultimately it ll have to come down to a vote or someone will just have to pick something It s like the let s move the community off Slack which I m still very interested in doing which was a lot of work and not fun but important even if we haven t actually made that move yet I m interested in keeping this community alive and active for a long time so I think it s worth challenging ourselves to keep making the community itself better and truer to its own values In particular I d like to use this as an opportunity to challenge any sense that this is a community primarily for white startup dudes We have that reputation and it s going to take effort to shake it This is an opportunity to make that effort I m opening up this discussion very broadly at first Please share your reflections on why the current name is bad or hell good If you have ideas for a better name that d be fun too If you have meta meta level thoughts about whether renaming things is a good idea that s welcome also This is going to be a messy process and that s fine

ibdknox · Answer

I suspect better names exist but I m not sure moving to one would really be worth the effort It s worth asking what concretely we d hope to get out of doing so There are already over 1700 people in the < C5T9GPWFL|thinking together> I don t imagine the community of people actively interested in the space would be much larger than that so it s not clear to me that we d be hoping to get a significantly large audience

ibdknox · Answer

Which is not to say that for various reasons the community fails to appeal to lots of interesting folks in the space or otherwise that s assuredly true as well but I don t think the name or anything else fixes that Cultures are a series of tradeoffs that won t make everyone happy

Andrew F · Answer

I agree the coding bit has always been oddly narrow I m not sure about the other points We have good reason to believe that studying the past is important for building a worthwhile future As for pretentiousness IMO a certain degree of egotism is required just to believe your actions can make coding whatever better for significant numbers of people Obviously there are limits but I don t think an aspirational name for the community is over the line So much the better if you can find a name that tempers it with humility such as is needed for learning from the past slightly smiling face but I wouldn t abandon that entirely I m a relative newcomer and not the most active participant so take all this with the appropriate sized chunk of salt

Ivan Reese · Answer

< ibdknox> Personally I am less concerned with growth and more concerned with strength I d like the community to have a strong set of values and to exude those values I think the current name does a poor job of that

ibdknox · Answer

Sounds like the real discussion is around those values then the name is just a function over them

Ivan Reese · Answer

You could say the name is a convenient hook for a discussion about what our values are and how we reflect them

Chris G · Answer

My input would be to take 3 months and see if you still feel strongly about it honestly it s just a name and most people are simply following a pointer of some kind to get here and will continue to regardless of the name Coding is probably seen as many things including Building and it s good to signify that this isn t just an ivory tower exercise but a community of people in progress on something Future is also fine better than signifying the retro sort of fetish that is definitely in the water We re building it will be different and oriented to next generations of builders Future is a good word And reading the name closely I still love the question the name asks of us what will coding things on computer be like especially when we stretch our imagination

Ivan Reese · Answer

At the risk of drawing heat hah Kartik suggested Systems Thinking which I quite like It s already taken by another Slack and unrelated inactive podcast but I don t think that matters I like that it s a nod to intersectionality systemic bias power dynamics and other topics that are of very high cultural importance that tend to be a bit siloed I like that these concerns are increasingly emulsified into our community not the center of our focus but something that we are continually mindful of I like that it is easily about computation but just as easily not I like that it ties sweetly into the name Thinking Together I like that it s not too on the nose not too vague not too narrow or wide It s a bit of a goldilocks to my taste

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Some ideas for new names in case that helps make the thought experiment more concrete Convivial Tools Systems Thinking

ibdknox · Answer

fwiw systems thinking is pretty tightly tied with Donella Meadows and is an actual discipline a formalism for how systems behave based on feedback loops that doesn t seem ~related to us~ to capture the majority of what happens here

David Brooks · Answer

I think these are all excellent ideas < Ivan Reese> I have some experience with sociocracy dynamic governance consent based decision making I ve given a few talks about it and I would be happy to facilitate it if folks think that d be better than a vote tyranny of the majority or someone picking something unilaterally I do agree with < ibdknox> though It will take more than a new name to solidify strengthen the community Values aim alignment sounds like a perfect next step and happens to be one of the foundations of sociocratic circles That said I personally don t feel particularly strongly about the name good or bad though I am currently digging the term Cybernetics the original usage not the sci fi concept Cybernetics as a name has the advantage of being simultaneously history reflecting and future facing And I think it might actually be another way of saying Systems Thinking without the potential baggage

Andrew F · Answer

Something something computing systems might be appropriate Systems is a word at about the right level of abstraction granularity

Ivan Reese · Answer

< ibdknox> Of course But I think the as coined meaning of systems thinking is actually poetically representative of what we do here This community is like a PID with Java+Eclipse as an anti setpoint

Ivan Reese · Answer

< David Brooks> gt dynamic governance consent based decision making would be happy to facilitate it if folks think that d be better than a vote I would love to learn more about this I think that it might solve a real problem here Would you be willing to spin up a thread in < C5T9GPWFL|thinking together> explaining how this works gt Cybernetics Yep another good one I think we ll be somewhat spoiled for choice with names that are meaningful and symbolic and the bigger challenge will be figuring out how to make a distinct identity out of it Systems Thinking stumbles in that regard too Kartik s other suggestion Convivial Tools also seems well thought out in terms of symbolism and relevance It might bother the Salon folks a bit though Dang these practicality hurdles

Ivan Reese · Answer

We can solve every problem with a pun Systems Winking Who said tech folks were afraid whimsey

S.M Mukarram Nainar · Answer

how about a mix The Convivial Systems Slack has a nice ring to it

Jimmy Miller · Answer

As an alternative to conviviality I like Richard Gabriele s Christopher Alexander s use of habitability I think habitable systems capture much of what I see people working on here I also don t know any other community using that metaphor

S.M Mukarram Nainar · Answer

< Jimmy Miller> I love that it has a very cozy feeling that I like and also I think clearly captures the correct content

Jimmy Miller · Answer

I will say I also associate systems thinking with much more than what we do here I subscribe to the systems and cybernetics new books podcast for example <https newbooksnetwork com category science technology systems and cybernetics|https newbooksnetwork com category science technology systems and cybernetics> That s the kind of stuff I d expect

Kartik Agaram · Answer

It just so happens that I ve been going through a process of whittling down the design choices of my project in an effort to attempt a reboot At this point I m basically down to two guiding principles habitability and auditability To the extent that it s relevant I think you need both Building convivial tools isn t just a matter of coming up with something habitable the community has to take an active part in its evolution to preserve habitability There has to be some level of communal effort from everyone like in a coop I think a lay attempt at systems thinking that this is the part all the research on tailorable software and community adaptation from the 90s <https tcher tech publications PhilipTchernavskij PhDThesis pdf> chapter 2 misses a heterogeneous population with some expert programmers is unstable if there s no path for people to become expert Over time you either end up with the experts leaving the group or gaining increasing power and growing unaccountable Counter examples appreciated But oh noes is auditability now going to have connotations of Scientology This stuff is hard I d appreciate suggestions for alternative terms that have proved themselves resistant to connotation drift the way conviviality has

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Incidentally I totally missed the connection between Future of Programming and <https www youtube com watch v=8pTEmbeENF4> Not a talk I go back to often So I m partly responsible for taking the name unironically I don t do well with irony this is a known bug

Tomas Čerkasas · Answer

I am a naming freak And yesterday wrote a 2 page rant about the problems of `workers rs` <https github com cloudflare workers rs> naming in CF discord naming stuff is really really important for me So I feel the hassle naming challenges create By no means it s a rabit hole not worth diving into Please give me few days to arrange my thoughts on this will lay them down in a google doc and share it here once it s done

Florian Schulz · Answer

I think the name of a community itself is important but as already mentioned it is not the only thing that will attract or put someone off A short mission statement or longer manifesto could probably help new members to figure out if this is for them At the same time knowing that the community will constantly reshape with every new contributor For me personally I ve been drawn here through the Podcast including research episodes and Max MSP and other historic references I think that I want to study the past to be able to create something for tomorrow Reflecting on past failures and successes seems more valuable than following the latest hot new startups on Twitter And by that the term Future isn t all that bad as it really gets me thinking about what that might mean I think for a community the phrasing Future of has positive connotations and puts you in a forward thinking mode On the other hand it may sound elitist or too big of a deal and put people of I often had an issue with the term coding because it is a lot more narrow than e g programming At least to me it feels a bit ironic because I hope that coding is not the future On the other hand if you think about code as anything that stands for something else symbols signs then I realize that almost any form of communication is code What I find most interesting about this community is that it s about people People who made and make software I m learning about those humans through listening to the Podcast often interviews and by reading about the stories behind programming system like Smalltalk Fabrik etc and the best part today is that some of those people are actually hanging out here That s such a valuable thing for me to develop as a person especially when I m not working at one of the big tech corporations Some random ideas referencing books and other work Past Visions Smalltalk Designing Programmes Decoded Code Dense Discovery I m thinking that I like the term Decode as in making something more accessible by revealing the inner workings Decode as in taking something that is hard to understand or obfuscated and making it legible by re writing it in a humane way I think that word maybe in combination with something else has potential to make the community more open inclusive approachable

David Brooks · Answer

There are 2 hard problems in computer science cache invalidation naming things and off by 1 errors Leon Bambrick

shalabh · Answer

< Florian Schulz> gt I often had an issue with the term coding because it is a lot more narrow than e g programming At least to me it feels a bit ironic because I hope that coding is not the future I feel very much like this I often think of FoC as Future of Computing However it s true that we re not just about imagining the future One name popped into my head when I think about what I see in this community everyday whether it is someone asking a question or showing their work or discussing some piece history Adventures in Computing Everything from Smalltalk to Hest to Mu to it fits this idea And it s not just individual adventures human society is itself exploring computing the computer revolution hasn t happened so we re also trying to figure out the larger adventure we are all part of The computer adjacent stuff like institutions and incentives kind gets covered by adventures I do think computing is the essential shared theme for us

Florian Schulz · Answer

< shalabh> Adventures wonderful term

Tomas Čerkasas · Answer

< Ivan Reese> in practical terms the potential renaming would include a Rename of this slack community b Registering new domain name and transfering all content setting up redirect from c Renaming all of the podcasting platforms d Any changes to or this is your personal project Which of above and maybe something I ve not mentioned

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

While I agree with all the criticism about the name and while I like many of the ideas proposed above I also have to point out that I probably wouldn t want to be part of a community whose topics could be described by a single term over a time span of more than a few months So it s either pick a name as a label and stick with it or let s change our name every year I am fine with either one

Ivan Reese · Answer

< Konrad Hinsen> I d love to hear your thoughts on what makes for a good name < Tomas Čerkasas> Likely A B and C The codex is a personal project I m excited to read your doc Or whatever form your thinking on this takes < shalabh> I like Adventures a lot < Florian Schulz> As for a short mission statement what do you think of the top paragraph on the Or perhaps the opening paragraphs of the

Florian Schulz · Answer

< Ivan Reese> I think the mission statement and code of conduct are really good Also the Slack member handbook helped me a lot They set the tone and pace that for me is welcoming considered slow So the name is not as important because even if it doesn t cover everything there sure is a lot of supporting material already

Mariano Guerra · Answer

I was thinking that a good exercise starting point that may get a result we can use is to try to find a tagline for the community to help contextualize the name I like how IETF s we believe in rough consensus and running code tells you a lot about them a micromanifesto or maybe something longer but it should be easy to remember I also like python s <https www python org dev peps pep 0020 id2| import this zen >

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

< Ivan Reese> I am not sure names matter that much For people inside the community any name just becomes a label in their wider world For people outside of the community it s communication beyond the name that matters more Why do people come here I bet it s not because they saw a reference to our community and liked the name It s more likely definitely in my case seeing the community mentioned in a specific context by a person they respect etc Cultural bias statement I live in France where renaming organizations is a national sport The net effect is that people lose track of who is who I have several friends who can t remember what the current name of their employer is

Mariano Guerra · Answer

a trick would be to rename it to FoC and fill the acronym with another meaning until we retire the fact that it s an acronym smile

Tomas Čerkasas · Answer

< Mariano Guerra> implications for `FoC` acronym also crossed my mind as one of the side effects of potential name change slightly smiling face

Srini K · Answer

In my brain I ve already replaced Future of Coding as Future of Computing Future of Personal Computing haha As a data scientist amp viz geek I like the word computing more than coding For me code sometimes gets in the way and is more a means to end I want to compute more than I want to code Tell the computer to simulate things that are too painful for me to create by hand

Kartik Agaram · Answer

To push back on that I think it s not about the computation but the side effects If only we could just focus on the computation We wouldn t be living then in this eldritch software eaten world

Srini K · Answer

for sure I guess thats why I thought Personal Computing was a way to nuance it But its a good point

Srini K · Answer

Humane Computing or heck maybe call ourselves the Engelbart Society wink

David Brooks · Answer

If you mention Humane Computing I would have thought you d go with the Raskin Society wink

ogadaki · Answer

First I must say that I also have the time consuming tendency to think a lot about naming things I m not very good at it but feel that it is important and difficult And of course sometimes I m thinking that Future of Coding is not perfect and that we should be able to find something better And I like lots of terms used in this thread like adventure conviviality habitability and auditability But after thinking about it I guess Future of Coding has the virtue of being simple direct and not too much ambiguous Especially Future is very engaging and Coding is clear for everyone I remember when I first saw the FoC website the name made me think this looks like a place which is about stuff I want to explore Working on a better programming experience And being in the community reading the discussions confirm that and shows me the other topics around this main subject About Coding even as I also find that it is too narrow my interests are on Future of Programming Activities and Tools for Thinking code has the advantage of being used a lot and with a relatively clear meaning Another point is that it is very easily understood by non English native speakers At least in France where I live When I talk about this community around me and I use the name Future of Coding I m confident that people can grasp roughly what it is Because the word code is used a lot here to talk about programming computing etc

Ivan Reese · Answer

For what it s worth here are some loose personal counterarguments to the above claims that the name doesn t matter It matters to me < Chris G> said to take 3 months I ve been bothered by the name for 3 years Code is not the rally point for how we relate to the computer It doesn t capture what we re about and it s not poetic enough to invite curiosity It nags at me It puts us in poor company When I invite someone to come on the podcast especially someone whose work is way out there I sincerely worry that the name will put them off Y all I can t invite Ted Nelson to come on a show with a name like this Also when you google future of coding you see a lot of spammy low value empty hype You don t see a lot of deep thoughtful reflective slow considered motion toward a delightful rebirth of the world of software It has a bad reputation I ve seen a handful of instances more than 5 less than 20 where folks have complained about the community being an unwelcoming place and then responders to those complaints have pointed to the name as a sign of hubris No wonder you had a bad time with a name like Future of Coding who do they think they are I think these criticisms are on point three years ago this community hadn t yet defined itself as having any values at all let alone that being welcoming was a major one We had folks like Edward in here shouting down anyone who didn t agree with his point of view There was an attitude held by a few especially loud folks that technical merit was all that mattered Our community has present tense a bad rap which it earned fair and square That bad rap is what people will see when they search for our name on social media mixed in with a handful of folks championing us maybe it s 50 50 Changing the name gives us a modicum of distance from that old reputation It won t magically fix our bad reputation but it s paddling in the right direction

Ivan Reese · Answer

< ogadaki> s point about the applicability to non native English speakers is significant and a great lens I d like to say that it s another argument in favour of going with a name that s more broad open to interpretation poetic so that it doesn t matter if folks don t get it but I have no idea what the best approach is with the non English lens

ogadaki · Answer

Oh I didn t know about the bad reputation frowning Sure that s a very good reason to change the name to turn the page Especially if the change comes with a clear communication on the values

ogadaki · Answer

gt but I have no idea what the best approach is with the non English lens Well maybe at least with all non native English speakers from this community trying to consider the name suggestions from their own native language lens I guess we are several ones Idea to count us for non native English speakers that are OK with that maybe you can put an emoji for your native language well country as there are no emoji for languages

Kartik Agaram · Answer

I also like giving folks from non English places more of a vote in choosing the name Nicolas your point about coding was very interesting

Chris G · Answer

It sounds like there s a fair bit of stress pushing this conversation and decision That s not an ideal basis from which to steer a community but if it s reality we should face it and that doesn t mean something very positive can t come from it Future of Computing would be an exciting upgrade my vote I think the name should have a geek qwan to it a bit of a siren call that implies fun for our kinds at least This is hobby time for most of us we re here for the fun of it Best of luck on the decision I m in regardless beer

shalabh · Answer

Based on many strong remarks against coding maybe we should be have been called The Anti Coding Coding Club grin

shalabh · Answer

gt I m in regardless < Chris G> Yeah me too I strongly agree with < Ivan Reese> s points about renaming It s a brand thing I m not sure we can capture the values in a name but certainly a new name brings a fresh new brand I m going to just throw some more non serious names at this thread based on the poetic prompt to see what sticks or evokes some other ideas Dream Machines from Ted Nelson Hello Software The Real Computer Quest Deprogramming Programming Switch the Angle I have my own interpretations of these but I ll hold of on those

shalabh · Answer

ok so what if we rename and move off slack at the same exact time

Ivan Reese · Answer

Not opposed to that even as a joke But I think that deserves a separate thread

Srini K · Answer

part of my day job is participating in a lot of communities esp open source ones Many live in Slack but there are definitely downsides too mostly the benefit seems to be people have Slack open during work hours + its nice for live discussions but longevity tradeoff deep discussion is a tradeoff

shalabh · Answer

Yes but lets ignore that proposal for now specially in this thread

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Some suggestions at a range of seriousness Habitable Computing Society jsforever A few small STEPS Sketchpads and Turtles Dionysian Computing Society Fauvist Computing Collective

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

< Jimmy Miller> While I personally like some of your suggestions I see some of them as exclusive because of insider jokes We do want to attract people who have never heard of STEPS or Sketchpad before

Ivan Reese · Answer

No Assembly Required

Ivan Reese · Answer

Speculative Execution

Ivan Reese · Answer

Eso Pangs

fivo · Answer

Just my 2 cents as I have only recently joined I think a name should try to convey what the community is about with no other context given I agree that Future of Coding is definitive not perfect but I think it conveys the general direction quite well So while I am all for making the Coding part wider scoped for example Future of Programming Computing I would shy away from naming it something esoteric like just 2 random names I have seen above Habitable Computing Society or Systems Thinking In both cases my guess of what the community is about with no other context would have been further off the mark

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Yeah there is a real tradeoff in doing that By making the name descriptive without context it invites people to bring their preconceived notions That can be a good thing if their ideas line up with what is really there But if those ideas don t it sets people up for disappointment and or frustration I ll give two examples from philosophy podcasts that I listen to History of Philosophy without any gaps The Partially Examined Life The former is very descriptive and you immediately know what it is about It doesn t require any inside knowledge And what you get matches the label it is very much a straight forward telling of the history of philosophy The partially examined life is a reference You have to know a particular reference in order to get it It also in absence of context doesn t tell you what it is But that is part of the point They are looking to do something different Their name reflects this If you have some insider knowledge you might have some expectations but ultimately not too many So I agree that most names other than things like future of will be more opaque but opacity isn t always bad

Ivan Reese · Answer

For anyone wondering about my plan I m going to let this thread keep going until it runs out of steam and then give it a thorough read through then probably run a small survey to gauge sentiment and then based on how that goes well we ll see Similar to how we handled the question of moving away from Slack though in this case I don t think the short term risk is as high because it s not like anyone is going to be blocked from participating due to the name oh no now that I ve said this out loud I ve probably awoken some spectre oh no

Chris G · Answer

Spectre Did someone say Engelbart three times cold sweat

David Brooks · Answer

I think the word future is fine but I do tend to agree that placing it at the beginning e g future of something feels a bit off whereas computing a brighter better something future to me sounds more inviting Just my $0 02

Mariano Guerra · Answer

Thinking About Thinking with Tools turtle

ogadaki · Answer

Just a random thought There is a term that I like Futurism In fact I already use it as my tag folder list name for everything about my FoC interests But How to use it in a name With which word Programming Comuting Coding Futurism It doesn t sound that good It can be seen as a reference to the Can we live with this reference Because there are good and less good things about it I came to it with the book the by Luigi Russolo which I really like and it is a pre dada surrealism movement On the downside some of the Italian Futursits were related to fascism even if there were also anti fascits in the Futurism movement

Florian Schulz · Answer

Infinite Loop infinity We re a curious community interested in anything between the history and future of computing Just thinking about all these things that repeat over and over again what s old is new again reinventing the wheel etc

ogadaki · Answer

Damned the <http futurological org|futurological org> domain is already occupied by a futurist computing technology from the past that is presently broken sweat smile

Ivan Reese · Answer

Thought Technology

Chris G · Answer

< ogadaki> So clearly there aren t time machines in the future disappointed

Nick Smith · Answer

I agree with the perspective of a few others here It s important for the community name to be simple enough that a person who randomly encounters it can immediately gauge what to expect Future of Coding conveys the gist of the community very well despite being a bit too narrow Given the community has been around for a few years now tweaking the name will probably do more harm than good Renaming would only make sense if it were part of a larger pivot such as migrating to Zulip and or changing how we operate

Nick Smith · Answer

But I m not sure if the community is engaged enough to coordinate any kind of pivot We d need something to invigorate us

ogadaki · Answer

I really like how Thought Technology captures the subject I particularly like how it can also includes non computer technologies like hmm books Not sure if it is a good fit for a name though Other variations using the plural Technologies or Thought Technologists maybe appending Society or Community Example Thoughts Technologists Society

shalabh · Answer

Mind Material

Maikel · Answer

Some ideas for alternate names Future of creating software Future of code programming compute thinking The current name really clicked with me and I think that s why I joined If I remember correctly I came here because I found the visual programming codex on google and somewhere found a link to future of coding I am not sure if I joined if the name didn t click with me or would be too vague or not specific enough Although I think a good description on our community website will help to keep a low joining barrier if the new name will be less specific to the coding part

Jimmy Miller · Answer

For what it is worth in the early days I almost bounced off because I felt a disconnect between the name and what was really happening Steve s particular vision of the future is not one that clicked with me I don t think any of us here think we all share the same idea about what the future of coding programming computation is If anything we exploring futures or really alternatives In some ways that is better today but in others it isn t We have a few more views represented here but I can certainly think of programmers who would come here and given the name be disappointed But what a name can do is broaden or narrow things In some sense the future of broadens and narrows If the name was something like Thought Technology I would have been posting things about tools for thinking quite a while ago As it is now I usually consider that not quite what this community is about

Vijay Chakravarthy · Answer

Bicycles of the mind

Vijay Chakravarthy · Answer

Coding is incidental imho

Ivan Reese · Answer

We could lean in to the lack of gender diversity and the fact that I don t think there are any teenagers here and go with Lambdads Eh Eh

ogadaki · Answer

External Mind s Technologies or Tools

shalabh · Answer

Memex Meme Makers

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Code Rethought

curious_reader · Answer

Excellent observations Ivan I m looking forward to find a better fitting description for our community here

curious_reader · Answer

Towards a better relationship with technology

curious_reader · Answer

Solar Punk in the making

David Brooks · Answer

I m a big fan of solarpunk myself but I think this community is independent of context The way I think about this community take it with a grain of salt is we ask what COULD computing be like if we let go of any preconceived notions

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

Avant Garde Generative Frontier of has colonial baggage Artisanal possibly appropriative Allies of The concept of coding writing design mapmaking cryptography biochemistry doesn t throw me off as too narrow though contextually lots of folks here are computer programmers that s where the mind goes

wtaysom · Answer

Interesting the connotations people hav for coding For me it began as a diminutive of programming but in the years since coding just seems to be the word that kids use these days programming itself being awkward in its own way multiple r s And if not computer programming it s something about the scheduling or listing of the schedule as in read the program to see who s on next

Ivan Reese · Answer

Lots of folks here dozens wanna do programming without doing any coding Anyone feel the inverse is true

Mariano Guerra · Answer

until really recently I thought coding and programming were almost the same now I see coding as how we do programming now and programming as the general problem solving activity that may in the future not involve coding

Andrew F · Answer

I think programming is still a bit too narrow Or is it just me who ties operating systems internals and UX into the same bundle We also seem to be interested in info management tools like the Memex mentioned above

Kartik Agaram · Answer

< Andrew F> Why does tying something extra in make the term narrower My goal is to make it easier to start with an info manager and keep drilling down well into the OS The only limit should be your own curiosity

Andrew F · Answer

It doesn t it just makes the already relatively narrow term programming less applicable I should have put it in quotes above but I ll leave it for clarity Indeed I have similar goals to yours

Doug Moen · Answer

The community I want to belong to would be called Convivial Computing Computing is broader than Coding it also includes Englebart s vision and Kay s Personal Dynamic Media both of which give users full control over what the computer does and gives full ability to customize configure specify problems and create solutions with or without coding Convivial is more specific than Future it describes what I want the future of Computing to be It s about a computing infrastructure that fully and unconditionally serves the needs of users and their communities The word convivial conveys a social aspect that isn t explicit in Raskin s humane or in Iverson s tools of thought

ogadaki · Answer

I really like Convivial Computing especially because of this social aspect Although because of its simplicity Though it is a more obscure naming than Future of Coding like names which are not perfect but is easily understood outside of the community

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

Convivial Computing is definitely what brought me here but I have always had the impression that this community is less focused more like let s play with new ideas and see where we get

ogadaki · Answer

From the international view in particular from French computing is less understandable while code and coding which is already used a lot Moreover there is no proper translation for Computing in the sense we use it here there s Informatique which is a very broad term or calcul for the calculus aspect of computing As an illustration while I was writing this I went to wikipedia page for and look what the French equivalent is for this page and there is none There are for etc but not for French Interesting thinking face

Doug Moen · Answer

Right so we would need to create another Convivial Computing Manifesto put it on the front page of the web site publicize it Our social media people would use the ConvivialComputing hashtag It s a pretty rare combination of words that should be easily googled and that not many people are using Domain names and other IDs are still available We can take this available identifier and bind our meaning to it Some considerations for Ivan if we choose a new name

David Brooks · Answer

I ve lately been using the metaphor of plumbing Electricity flowing through circuits is very analogous to water flowing through pipes The metaphor breaks down a bit with EM fields and metaprogramming but it s pretty fun to think about Anyway I like to think of programming as simply hooking up a variety of pipes in such a manner as to do useful work No idea if this is helpful in the context of naming the community but IMHO I think programming == plumbing is a nice way to think of it as plumbing is generally seen as a lot more accessible to the layperson than programming

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Yes that analogy is often useful During my years at Google managing big data pipelines I often called myself a code plumber constantly called to inspect leaks in these huge data pipes However it s not universal For example think about how to apply it to a spreadsheet You could imagine a spreadsheet as a static mesh of pipes that connect up the grid of cells but a formula like `=SUM A1 D8 ` is actually doing all the interesting stuff packet switching outside the pipes And we can t just carve out a special case for spreadsheets In general it s hard to visualize late bound code as pipes Imagine a higher order function like map Even at the lowest levels think about the fact that the current at the base of a transistor affects whether a current flows between emitter and collector The key isn t the pipe effect The key is the switch effect On a more abstract level I think the pipe metaphor corresponds to operational semantics The other metaphor available is math denotational or axiomatic semantics <https en wikipedia org wiki Semantics computer science > You re right that the metaphor makes computing seem more accessible But I think it hides too much of the essential strangeness of computers Metaphors dumb down computers

Ivan Reese · Answer

We are currently in a tough spot because Future of Coding is too similar to Bret s talk Future of Programming Convivial Computing seems to have the same problem there s already the Convivial Computing Salon with a fair bit over overlap between those folks and our community So while I quite like this name I don t think we can use it

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Though that Salon was a one time thing that s over a year ago at this point

Kartik Agaram · Answer

For me the biggest test for a name would be who here thinks it doesn t adequately represent their reason to be here while the current name does Regarding French I doubt there exists a single term that will work across all languages Perhaps we explicitly leave room to translate it in every other language

Doug Moen · Answer

Any idea that is big enough to turn into a general movement will have multiple independent groups working under the same banner Also why not ask the organizers of the Convivial Computing Salon if this interferes with their future plans since some of them are on this slack < jonathoda> < Bosmon> < Brian Hempel>

Ivan Reese · Answer

Oh that was a 1 off I thought it was a regular thing In that case this name should absolutely be on the table I love it

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Ah here s the link for the series <https 2020 programming conference org series salon|https 2020 programming conference org series salon>

jonathoda · Answer

< Ivan Reese> Convivial Computing Salon is on hiatus but may return Speaking for myself I have no problem if you want to adapt the term Name clashes and subtle differentiations are natural

jonathoda · Answer

I ve noticed there is relatively less interest in the end user programming channel I get more of a Tools for Thought vibe here I think of conviviality as being non expert

Kartik Agaram · Answer

That s really interesting Doesn t even conviviality require some expertise to set up One example from Illich which I disagree with is that the telephone is structurally convivial Presumably Illich meant after the experts had set it up All these categories blur together for me Different lenses on a single elephant

Kartik Agaram · Answer

YATACC Yet another attempt at convivial computing

Doug Moen · Answer

I don t see a conflict between convivial computing and expertise Anybody who becomes good at using a computer to accomplish their goals has gained expertise and that s equally true if you are using convivial software

Doug Moen · Answer

Illich s Tools for Conviviality is about power structures who has power and who doesn t Illich talks about systems of technology being used to take power and agency away from individuals and to give that power and agency to large institutions I want computers to be tools for thought capable of augmenting human intellect I want computers and technology to give the user more power I oppose technology that takes power away from users There are already social movements addressing bits and pieces of this Open source Free software addresses one issue The activism against walled gardens and for decentralized computing addresses other issues

shalabh · Answer

I got a winner Web 4 0

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

For me convivial is absolutely not the same as end user The latter term which I dislike presupposes a distinction between professional programmers and mere users whereas convivial technology is something that everyone can own to the degree they need My own situation is perhaps a good illustration I am computational scientist I write a lot of code but writing code is not the core of my professional activity I write code to do a specific job a job that s far to specialized to create a market for professional software developers Most but not all of the code I write is situated software adapted to a very specific problem to a specific kind of data to a particular scientific instrument etc What people like myself need is infrastructure technology that supports their work rather then enslaving them with endless ecosystem churn

daltonb · Answer

I know I m late but Convivial + Habitable = Cozy Computing

David Brooks · Answer

ooohhh Cozy Computing that brings to mind so many wonderful things I love this

Ivan Reese · Answer

It s not late until I actually get around to synthesizing this thread hah It s on the list New podcast episode first

Jimmy Miller · Answer

I love the suggestion But also find it hilarious in light of the latest hest episode Cozy Mosh Pit Computing is my new suggestion

David Brooks · Answer

< Jimmy Miller> what is hest is it a tv show

Jimmy Miller · Answer

It s < Ivan Reese> s podcast about the programming language he is working on

Stefan · Answer

Oh fun totally missed this interesting thread been away for too long After the grand channel renaming I have high hopes and a lot of confidence that a great new name worthy of a community that is eager to dream up convivial computing programming futures will be found crossed fingers

Orion Reed · Answer

To keep this thread going and add my 2 cents I think this is a needed discussion and one that I m happy to see I agree with basically all of < Ivan Reese> s critiques and concerns If we re talking about a small change to match the scope better I think going from Coding to Computing is a great fit as many have said already I already swap these out in my head when I hear Future of Coding As for a more radical shift I agree that Systems is a very appropriate scope and adaptable It also has a solid foundation Systems sciences etc and I think is a less misleading term than coding We all care about systems but only some of us care about the coding part How to make a name out of it I m less sure Cybernetics is also an interesting choice but while it s one I use a fair bit in my work I don t know if It s one that matches how this community sees itself but that could change Cybernetics especially second order cybernetics is deeply concerned with the interaction between people and systems This relationship is certainly essential to what we want to do change the relationship between people and computing From the scale of individuals groups society etc The circular feedback loop here is what makes this second order cybernetics fyi as in cybernetics applied to itself It s also the study of self organisation in complex systems this part I really like And I d even posit we need a far stronger focus on this as a community if we want to see things change A slight shift from individual FoC projects to also include systems that enable self organisation communication collaboration coordination knowledge synthesis etc would be a welcome shift Put succinctly I think there is no FoC without cybernetics Veered off a bit from naming towards community identity but felt relevant I like this discussion hoping it continues

curious_reader · Answer

Thank you for explicit naming that this is basically a quest for identity which is important

Nick Smith · Answer

I think switching to the term future of computing would make it less clear that we are interested in the act of creating software rather than merely using computers Ideally any new title would still refer to the act of software creation

Srini K · Answer

future of computering

Srini K · Answer

the most general catch all Its just what on earth will using a computer look like down the road

wtaysom · Answer

Computering feels like a remarkably good term because it 1 captures the nuance building using 2 feels human centered it s not about machines it s about people do with them 3 at least to me needs no further defining 4 maintains the FoC acronym 5 it s awkward in the same way that trying to feel our way toward this future is awkward

Andrew F · Answer

I don t know if it was intended as a joke but I read computering as a direct reference to a certain <https www reddit com r talesfromtechsupport comments 5htbtu i need you to fix google bing immediately |infamous Reddit story> Honestly it might still fit but I didn t think that s the tone we re going for

Srini K · Answer

I ve never heard of this but honestly this actually reinforces the idea of computering even more Computers should work for everyone be expressive etc and the IT help desk conversation if anything emphasizes the helplessness the person had that we hope they wouldn t in the future So we re able to take that energy and re cast it slightly smiling face seems like a win to me

Chris G · Answer

Strategery of Computering

Kartik Agaram · Answer

I think < Nick Smith> makes a good point above that computering is generic enough to admit passive usage However the opposite of passive usage isn t necessarily creating software I think the create framing perpetuates our culture s bias to think more about writing rather than reading code to valorize creating new simple solutions rather than understanding the complexity of existing solutions So what is the opposite of passive usage Best phrasing I can think of so far having more agency over our computers And agency can change without adding removing programming think about all the software on your computer that auto updates and changes things on you That materially has reduced agency now that you don t get to decide when to hit ok cancel on that annoying dialog All without changing how un programmable your computer is

Srini K · Answer

I still dig the personal home cooking woodworking analogy Personal Computering Home Computing Home Computering shrug

Kartik Agaram · Answer

My mastodon likes smol slightly smiling face Situated software But that does seem like a smaller tent that doesn t cover everyone here

Srini K · Answer

The core unique idea to computing really feels like simulation Personal Simulation Even though the quantified self movement didn t really take off there was a bit of a personal end user empowerment angle which was neat thinking face

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

A favourite word of mine in these contexts is tinkering it encapsulates the mode well for me more specific than play but equally open ended possibly casual implies investment and depth too is technologically oriented when it needs to be Something that invites tinkering ~bestows~ ha generates agency

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Homegrown software club

Ivan Reese · Answer

The convivial folks are wrestling with this same naming the scene dilemma <https twitter com stephenrkell status 1471898241545510914|https twitter com stephenrkell status 1471898241545510914>

Kartik Agaram · Answer

It s bringing home to me how irreversible this stuff is One way we could proceed kill this Slack spin up three others see what gets all the activity boom It s destructive and we ll lose something to friction On the other hand perhaps it helps future contributors at the expense of us incumbents Would be a selfless act

Ivan Reese · Answer

And here I was thinking We should merge all the communities together

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Definitely an option But only one of the options

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

Community structure is actually one of the questions that is rarely addressed explicitly Maybe loosely coupled smaller communities are more effective Maybe not Also how is community structured related to communication tools All we have is chat type interaction I suspect most of us would agree that this is not ideal but then we don t have a clear idea of how to do better

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Code is dead

Nick Smith · Answer

And according to Alan Kay <https news ycombinator com item id=11945722|so is data> Not to say I believe it

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Wow that thread is fantastic Alan Kay and Rich Hickey duking it out popcorn

Kartik Agaram · Answer

gt You can of course instead send me a program that better explains yourself but I don t trust you enough to run it gt boom

Nick Smith · Answer

I wasn t very impressed with Alan Kay s responses though He didn t provide direct answers to Rich s questions He was being excessively vague woman shrugging

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

An interesting exchange indeed which I read a while ago Both sides have good arguments which are slightly obscured by the very different attitudes of their proponents Alan Kay as a visionary Rich Hickey as a pragmatist Overall I am more on the data side mostly because I consider the rule of least power <https www w3 org 2001 tag doc leastPower html> very important

Ivan Reese · Answer

The one thing we can all agree on though is that code is definitely a bad idea

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Evil Maybe a necessary evil to be minimized rather than eradicated Though I wonder now if < Jimmy Miller> meant this or dead in the sense of dead fish

Jimmy Miller · Answer

It was a reference to Nietzsche s parable of the madman <https sourcebooks fordham edu mod nietzsche madman asp|https sourcebooks fordham edu mod nietzsche madman asp>

Jimmy Miller · Answer

You know I actually quite like code Now I also love seeing alternatives But I think code is under appreciated Not unpopular just under appreciated Code is an expressive medium in a very unique way Of course it expresses computation things but that s all we focus on Code gives you so much bandwidth for choosing your own style I can be in an unfamiliar codebase and immediately recognize particular engineers code That recognition is not white space or particular names but has more to do with structure There is something about the code that embodies that persons personality Being able to accomplish a task and use that moment as a way to express myself differently is fantastic I can play with code in a way I find difficult in language I can explore ways of approaching a problem that I may not fully even understand myself but can make work reflect on and come to understand There is also a freedom of expression by its self contained nature When writing natural language there is an expectation of conveying some particular idea Even if this is just note taking for yourself if someone lacks context about the topic you are talking about there is nothing in the text to help them Code is self contained in that you can write code completely incomprehensible and yet people can just examine the code and figure it out The ambiguity isn t there and so you are free to just write The code does what it does and that is discoverable Code also communicates indirectly peoples values and beliefs Rather than paying attention to the semantics of code I find it more interesting to look at the pragmatic in the Gricean Maxim s sense This is where ambiguity comes back in What does this code being expressed in this way tell me about the beliefs of the people who wrote it What does these different styles tell me about the struggles on the team These are all things code can help you understand Further making programming languages is an incredibly fun and creative act What linguistically do you want to convey and how What unintended consequences does your language have How can you use abuse certain language features to do unintended things There are so many more things I d love to say in praise of code Without I m not sure I d be who I am But that is of course not to say that no other medium is better for expressing computation I guess I m pretty fond of code but since I know not everyone shares that fondness I want them to find what I have found in code in another medium A new means of expression that takes advantage of what computers have to offer

daltonb · Answer

Beautiful gloss Lightning and thunder require time

Mariano Guerra · Answer

I think code should be the first to go according to the dictionary a system of words letters figures or symbols used to represent others especially for the purposes of secrecy a phrase or concept used to represent another in an indirect way

Mariano Guerra · Answer

google image search for coding

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

I see the term coding as part of the wizard culture of early computing That was perhaps a useful aspect to get people on board in the early days when the real life use cases were rare But when you do care about the real world and in particular about generating trust in technology wizard culture is an obstacle

Srini K · Answer

System Sketching System Designing

Chris G · Answer

Code is awesome who amongst us I m genuinely curious was not activated by the idea that this computer is customizable and it s via speaking a special language that language is code I want to read some I want to try to write some What s the alternative Tweaking settings and preferences Drawing pictures Doing some Minority Report mime show Having a chit chat I can reprogram my DVR that way but that in no way feels like how I feel when I sit down with my computer HyperCard threw the entire kitchen sink of UI facilities within a button click or two of the user and you still couldn t make more than a basic carousel without ultimately getting in the script have some variables some loops maybe clean it up into functions now this button can do something Yes code is a 2nd language to learn there will be some indirection when speaking in electricity but I wonder if it s actually one of the easiest 2nd languages to learn because typically there just aren t that many semantic primitives What FoC project doesn t invent a new language via symbology or actual code Even if it was smoke signals it d still be code So anyway code

Kartik Agaram · Answer

The question is not what we here use for automation The question that brings me here is what it would take to get broader participation in automation I care about programming coverage in my society the way I care about vaccine coverage Is code the right framing to get more people automating their computers

Chris G · Answer

The messaging for the general public will be in terms of whatever new paradigms are located here or elsewhere Something for the general public may be the ultimate mission but the direct mission here for this community is speaking to those who are activated to work on the larger mission I d say And hell my mission certainly isn t necessarily something for the broad public they re already onboard we now have more people using computers than driving cars including personalizing those computers and my presumption is that personalization and automation will increase naturally over time probably via pretty uninteresting methods What I m really here for is something cool whether that brings in another of non computer users or not or bumps the of normie user automation or not Regardless I can see how code feels like a more limiting frame than a freeing frame but is this already a more limited frame community And is the frame of code energizing or de energizing Worth a survey probably

Andrew F · Answer

Framing for the general public is a bit of an orthogonal problem to framing for people we want to join our community I m skeptical that there can ever be a singular framing for the general public that s the kind of thing we might discuss here in a group for people creating the things we might then try to convince the public is useful The main problem I see is that we don t agree on our goals except in the very broadest terms of making programming better somehow Any name more specific than that is going to fit awkwardly at best BTW here s another vote against incorporating people s names Having heroes is almost always a mistake let s not institutionalize them in a spot that s hard to change Rather keep the same name

Chris G · Answer

our goals is probably a good thing to not have we should have factions we should have discussions past each other that s the sign of a real school in ancient greek terms multiple competing perspectives entirely different sets of concerns tons of things to share that mostly have no value for any of us individually super high churn in level of interest we need even more variance in mission I d say

Chris G · Answer

code being just one faction smile I spose

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Exactly Like < Chris Knott> I m much more comfortable saying what it isn t than what it is It isn t just code

Andrew F · Answer

The biggest common thread I see is about enabling creation of software Future of creating software is a mouthful but possibly angled close to the right direction though software is arguably still too narrow Was there something we didn t like with Future of Computing

Kartik Agaram · Answer

No it edit computing has come up several times in this thread with minor variations and no major red flags The major negatives against it are internationalization doesn t translate well to French and perhaps other languages but we could always use other translations in other languages and name collision convivial computing salon My perception is that it s a leading candidate but it s unclear so far if it s different enough to be worth a name change

Jimmy Miller · Answer

If you look at the OP One of Ivan s dislikes of the name is the pretensions of the future So any name with that in it would have the same problem We can always do the academic thing and make it plural But I think what is desired is a name that captures the diversity and the contingency of what computing is and what computing could be

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Ah yes I was focusing on the computation In my biased reading of this thread the current frontrunner is Convivial computing computation

Chris G · Answer

the word convivial just makes me want to take a nap it s such a sunny day lazy word also the writings around it are all soporific

Chris G · Answer

too bad Possibilities is a long word because the feeling is perfect and also it would let us do PoC P of Computing

Orion Reed · Answer

I certainly identify more with computing than programming as a research area and I think it s a more honest reflection of this communities interests This includes programming but also broader systems software interfaces etc and it doesn t constrain the theory toolset to those common in programming research But as Jimmy pointed out the future of may be the real issue I like the direction Jimmy and Christopher pointed towards of pluralism variety and possibility I m not too mad at pluralising the name something like Futures of Computing at least makes sense to me though it sounds a little off I ll also chuck into the mix the notion of alternatives to the future as is or to computing as is but not as a name suggestion

Orion Reed · Answer

It s hard to capture the nuance confused Like for me it feels that computing has suffered from a slow cancellation of the future with deflating expectations increasing homogeneity and consolidation of power So one important role of a community like this is demonstrating that a different computing future is possible to imagine let alone achieve But that s hardly something that works as a title ツ

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Counterfactuals of Computation Sounds like a textbook Alt Comp is short Or alt c and then you can have ç as the logo Not quite as cool as Alt j

Orion Reed · Answer

^ I like this a lot in spirit but isn t counterfactual quite close to saying not true

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Counterfactuals are propositions about possibilities What if smalltalk had become popular and not java What if everyone could program a computer Counterfactuals are connected to modal logic and also the concept of possible worlds Really great area of philosophy Also has connections to distributed computation

Orion Reed · Answer

I wish I could think of a short word for the plurality of alternate possible futures of computing which could be better that you may not have known were possible and which we can work towards together today or something to that effect

Orion Reed · Answer

< Jimmy Miller> I wonder what you think of as the distinction between computing and computation I d interpret computation in most circumstances to be a subset of computing which I parse as a more all encompassing and inter disciplinary field

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Obviously we would need a German word That does remind me though I ve always loved Die Brücke The Bridge Probably not a mass appeal name though Like Salon it an art reference Die Brücke was a german expressionist group They got their name from a Nietzsche quote about being The Bridge to future rather than the future itself Definitely the role I feel this group wants to play to be The Bridge

Vijay Chakravarthy · Answer

its Friday afternoon and I m thinking gewurztraminer

David Brooks · Answer

Perhaps something along the lines of dreams imagination Dreaming in Computer or Computational Imagineering Just throwing it out there

shalabh · Answer

I still like Adventures in Computing Our maybe misadventures

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

I enjoy the word `photography` as an inspiration or thinking point The etymology is merely light + representing drawing whether people know that or not isn t very important in the evolution of its practice or embodiment in our creative culture I used to have to be a chemist a machinist a carpenter and an adventurer to participate in photography it was quite intimidating and only a small handful of specialists were doing it on a daily basis The casual citizen if they were rich or famous would commission the magical mysterious creation and take home a giant plate that only their family might ever see Cut to if I push this button my face can look like a unicorn with sparkles and all my million followers are about to see this jam in 30 seconds But it s still called photography and I m still just playing with light

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

Starting from photography how about view Views of computing

Nick Smith · Answer

Views sounds too much like opinions and I think the computing community has an oversupply of those

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

OK so maybe perspectives

curious_reader · Answer

I think I like perspectives of computing

Nick Smith · Answer

That s a bit better but it s too passive IMO Sounds like a community centred around talking rather than creating

curious_reader · Answer

Viable perspectives on computing

Konrad Hinsen · Answer

New perspectives on computing Executable perspectives on computing

Chris Knott · Answer

I think my vote would be for something more like Rebuilding Computing Rethinking Computing Remaking Computers The Re reflects the backwards looking reflective nature of a lot of the research but the building making suggests its an active community of makers where kudos is earned in part by what you actually build It s fairly inclusive in that it doesn t sound academic pretentious Kind of like Computers left you behind first time around Get in loser we re remaking it

Nick Smith · Answer

I really like the vibe of those phrases

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

One billion tinkerers

Chris Knott · Answer

gt One billion tinkerers Yes that s the other genre of catchphrase I like the other 99 programming for the rest etc It doesn t really reflect a lot of the actual projects here at the moment though which are still pitching to existing programmers but just doing it better

Mariano Guerra · Answer

< Konrad Hinsen> Viewpoints wink

shalabh · Answer

The Confused Computerists Collective Dis Oriented Programming

Kartik Agaram · Answer

Shalabh I loved your first suggestion up top but they ve been going downhill ever since smile

shalabh · Answer

These don t actually mean anything vision wise I just think any label works well as a name

shalabh · Answer

I m thinking about Ink amp Switch for instance It s just a label not trying to be clever but is clearly a brand at this point Anyone know what the meaning behind that is

Jimmy Miller · Answer

< Chris Knott> I had a similar suggestion with the Re earlier You could always stylize it to make the multiple meanings apparent Code Re Thought

Kartik Agaram · Answer

I see it <https futureofcoding slack com archives CEXED56UR p1633392212155800 thread ts=1632872466 023400 amp cid=CEXED56UR> I like Code Rethought One reason tools for thought works so well is the lack of suffixes like tion or ing Packs a punch If we want a re it should probably be the only prefix suffix

Kartik Agaram · Answer

< Ivan Reese> I did a pass through this thread and pulled out the serious I have no sense of humor candidates that seemed to have some support Convivial Computing Computation Habitable Computing Society Humane Computing Adventures in Computing Code Rethought Rebuilding Computing Rethinking Computing Remaking Computers Systems Thinking Convivial Tools Cozy Computing Computing Literacy Engelbart Society Raskin Society BLEIKAN Society Bush Licklider Engelbart Illich Kay Alexander Nardi One concrete question for me at this point is which of these names if any would you be comfortable reaching out to potential podcast guests with That seems like a reasonable criterion for disqualification Go over the past podcast guests and see how many of them wouldn t fit

Chris G · Answer

Reboot Computers

Andrew F · Answer

Rebooting Computing has a nice ring D

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

The Computing Commons

Ivan Reese · Answer

< Kartik Agaram> Thanks for doing that All of the names are lovely but also they all have meanings qualities about them for which they could be disqualified as ill fitting So here I ll pick two that seem furthest from the mark in my opinion which should count for very little Code Rethought I don t code as the point of reference That precludes for instance Jennifer Jacobs work which is about dynamism and not at all about coding Engelbart Raskin BLEIKAN Society I don t like organizing around the ideas work of a person or specific people Feels like a cult of personality

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Not to be a partisan But that s the point of Code Rethought Like should we even have code Maybe we took a wrong turn Should we rethink this whole thing I just wanted to smuggle in the word because we are trying to attract programmers as one core part of our audience

Ivan Reese · Answer

That s still framing things in terms of the creation of software rather than the broader and more interesting notion which is what even is a computer and what will we do with it

Ivan Reese · Answer

< Andrew F> s Rebooting Computing absolutely rips It s silly and fun to say It s open ended The sort of guests I d feel embarrassed to invite to a podcast with a name like that are the strait laced self serious corporate shills that I wouldn t invite anyway It feels sort of early PC era like The Computer Show or BYTE Magazine

daltonb · Answer

Lol I m sold In addition to what you said I was trying to figure out how to put this but one of the things I do like about FoC is that it implicitly evokes the history of computing This manages to do one better with the added sense of revisiting initial conditions amp how we got from there to here

Ivan Reese · Answer

Welp it s already taken by a similar group with similar goals <https en m wikipedia org wiki IEEE Rebooting Computing|https en m wikipedia org wiki IEEE Rebooting Computing>

Srini K · Answer

The Humane Computing slants also seem to be taken

daltonb · Answer

Booooo Rebootering Computering

shalabh · Answer

I love rebooting computing too Bummer it s taken

Srini K · Answer

Restarting Computing thinking face Restarting Computers more punn y

daltonb · Answer

lowkey gotta hand it to the IEEE for that one

Chris G · Answer

Reboot Computers the booting pooting rhyme takes some of the vigor out of the basic idea anyway

shalabh · Answer

The ing is what adds the zing imo

Srini K · Answer

Recomputing

Ivan Reese · Answer

< Chris G> The rhyme is what makes it fun and gives it character

Chris G · Answer

Definitely friendly would have been nice to use

shalabh · Answer

Computer Rebooter

Mariano Guerra · Answer

ReComputing eyes

Chris G · Answer

Computer Science Theater 3000

shalabh · Answer

Don t compute reboot

Kartik Agaram · Answer

How much does that name conflict matter I kinda like the name too much to give up on it just yet

Jimmy Miller · Answer

Seems like too big of a group to name conflict with Some random podcast would be one thing This is ieee and they are actively using it and dominate the Google results

shalabh · Answer

Yeah I was just looking at them and they seem to active with a bunch of stuff under that brand

Ivan Reese · Answer

There s a wikipedia page for it We don t even have a wikipedia page

daltonb · Answer

I have the same feeling sadly

Chris G · Answer

Imagine Computers

Chris G · Answer

Imagining Computing smile

daltonb · Answer

Repunking Computer Imaginaries

shalabh · Answer

Disrooting Computing Rerouting Computing Uprooting Computing Highfalutin Computin Reconstituting Computing Sorry I found <http rhymezone com|rhymezone com> But I will now stop speak no evil

Chris G · Answer

Let s be honest all we re about is highfalutin computin

Chris G · Answer

rootin tootin computin

Kartik Agaram · Answer

<https futureofcoding slack com archives CEXED56UR p1652723948312039 thread ts=1632872466 023400 amp cid=CEXED56UR> Bah evil organizations once again getting in the way of noble people Google IEEE Wikipedia is for squares you need to know someone to get in on this scene

Chris G · Answer

Just think how many more community members we d get if IEEE delivered a cease amp desist

Kartik Agaram · Answer

On the one hand legal proceedings On the other hand having to put up with more funny names from you lot I know which hand I fear more

shalabh · Answer

Rebootin Computin No name conflict here

Kartik Agaram · Answer

1 skin tone 4 Rhymes with Putin

Srini K · Answer

Rootin Tootin Computin

Chris G · Answer

Then IEEE will come back with Rootinest Tootinest Computin

Nick Smith · Answer

Bootin Putin

Nick Smith · Answer

I would like to express my strong support for the title Code Rethought or Code Rethunk which gives us a unique stylization also refers to something sneaky shushing face I agree with Jimmy that such a title shouldn t exclude people who are interested in computational environments that don t feature explicit code because the title can be interpreted in two ways 1 Perhaps we should rethink our existing programming languages and tools 2 Perhaps we should rethink the role of code in defining interactive systems Perhaps we don t need code at all

Arvind Thyagarajan · Answer

The Uncoders Underbelly