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thinking-together
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#thinking-together
- Reflecting more on Amy Ko's recent work...a
Alex McLean
10/02/2023, 9:47 AMSeems related.. - Some discussion here https://forum.algorithmicpattern.org/t/algorithms-and-language/594
- I'm making a basic color picker for my d...i
Ivan Reese
10/02/2023, 2:41 PMThis is tough! I think it depends a lot on how you explain that behaviour. I've used a lot of professional art tools where you can erase by selecting an "X" color — Flash, for instance. The audience being children probably helps here too, because if you explain "do this to erase" they won't likely push back with a lot of "well that's not how I'm used to working in other tools", perhaps. - Reflecting more on Amy Ko's recent work...c
Christopher Shank
10/02/2023, 6:21 PMTotally agree! Do you think Amy’s focus on youth education also had an impact of Wordplay? - Welcome! `slack` joined #thinking-togeth...l
LinenBot
10/02/2023, 6:55 PMWelcome!
joined #thinking-together.slack - Reflecting more on Amy Ko's recent work...a
Andrew F
10/02/2023, 9:18 PMThat introduction sounds... well, it sounds like the author lives in a very different world than I do. He makes it sound like rigorous/non-natural languages are some conspiracy against communication, when the truth is that they keep convergently evolving because natural language simply does not do the job of communicating these things. People have tried doing math and computation in words over and over and it's miserable every time. More to the point, the abstract idea of an algorithm is very specifically a tool for communication, and evolved the way it did to be more effective in that role. Any argument that wants to claim it's actually an obstacle has a very heavy lift in front of it, and nothing in that intro suggests the author is aware of that. I would further claim than any notion of LLMs (I assume this is what he's referring to as "machine learning"?) breaking this trend is an illusion. They will either evolve some form of rigor or (more likely) produce inscrutable messes. - k
Konrad Hinsen
10/03/2023, 7:04 AMAlgorithms and their mechanized forms we call computer programs are indeed merely the latest step in what I'd label as formal methods if that label weren't already taken by CS in some more specific sense. That's a line of thought that can be traced back at least to Leibniz and easily beyond, to antiquity. If there's a recent development that deserves criticism, it's the importance that algorithms have acquired in today's life. Computers have transformed them from a specialists' tool into one accessible not to everybody, but to a rather large elite, who is not always using it in the interest of the wider population. - a
Alex McLean
10/03/2023, 7:32 AMI've only read the introduction of the book so far, but I don't think that's a fair characterisation of Binder's argument. Clearly granting mathematical abstractions objective existence is useful for sharing them, and he makes this clear. Ref 'machine learning' I think you're reading the promotional blurb which might well have been written by the series editor rather than the author. - I need to read more, but so far see this more as pointing out that the way we think about algorithms has been different in the past, and is changing now. It's a similar approach to Bret Victor in his "Future of Programming" talk. The 'future of programming' title seems to sometimes be taken unironically in this community but it's really about the past of programming, pointing out that in the early days, the possibilities were much more open than they are now, that programming has now got really stuck in a limited view of itself, and that we need to look back to look for ways of imagining an alternative future.
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Konrad Hinsen
10/03/2023, 12:46 PMThanks @Alex McLean for reminding is not to judge a book but a single page! - a
Andrew F
10/03/2023, 3:34 PMI'm interested to hear what his full argument is. I hope it's more specific than "the idea of an algorithm has changed over time". Anyway, the sole job of an introduction is to give you an idea of what the book is about, so I don't think it's unfair to pass provisional judgement on that basis. - a
Alex McLean
10/03/2023, 3:38 PMI think the introduction is a really nice framing, and says much more than that. - I like this from page 12: "It is primarily these earlier ways of thinking—the ones that are noticeably different from modern computation—that I emphasize in this book. In the history of science, it is a methodological precept to avoid falling into the style called “Whig history”—to avoid, that is, describing historical developments through linear narratives of progress that implicitly side with the positions that won. Histories of mathematical symbols tend to be extremely Whiggish, complimenting authors who use notations that later became standard and chastising those who do not. I certainly do not mean to deny the advantages of symbolism, but my purpose is less to celebrate it than to understand it, and I accordingly hope to describe what was lost with the adoption of symbols as well as what was gained. I also hope to show that the symbolic method is not a fixed category. The ways people have understood symbols changed multiple times over the centuries, and the modern idea of algorithm is a product of particular circumstances and epistemological commitments."
- I think there's an interesting parallel with musical staff notation here.. Some clear advantages in terms of communication, but also a great deal has been lost, e.g. the loss of canntaireachd in the scottish highlands
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Jack Rusher
10/03/2023, 4:34 PMWhenever someone suggests that there’s something artificial about inventing formal notations, I’m reminded of this Bertrand Russell quote: “Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise.” - a
Alex McLean
10/03/2023, 5:20 PM@Jack Rusher hmm, artificial in what sense? - I went away from FoC for a few weeks and...d
Duncan Cragg
10/03/2023, 10:30 PMI went away from FoC for a few weeks and dropped by today and I have to say I'm blown away by the diversity of creative and innovative work being brought to light here. And, bizarrely, how little discussion is being initiated by the posts! Is everyone so focused on their own stuff that they're not available for engaging in a broader perspective? I'm worried that a lot of great stuff could be going the wrong way or could fizzle simply through lack of community coherence. Dunno. Whaddyall think? - [kicking off a thread to make it easier to reply]
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Eli Mellen
10/03/2023, 10:36 PMI don’t think you are wrong! I don’t have anything profound to say that’s like “a fix,” but I’d say that community takes a lot of work, and knowing how to do that work is a difficult skill to cultivate. I think there is a lot of sort of “dropping it and wishing” where you sorta cross your fingers and hope a community appears because building that community is essentially a full time lift and the vibe here seems to be focused on making the stuff (which isn’t a value call by any means, just sort of a vibe check). - I don’t have a “thing,” per se, but the way I show up here is to try and ask questions without a strong inclination of where stuff will land, but curiosity about where it ends up.
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Lu Wilson
10/04/2023, 12:13 AMI speak for myself, but often the more eye-opening stuff here leaves me a bit speechless/commentless. Often it takes a while to process it, but the impact has been had, and the influence has been made! A 🍰 emoji shows my appreciation - Reflecting more on Amy Ko's recent work...l
Lu Wilson
10/04/2023, 12:21 AMHey I'll be presenting at this year's LIVE with a very art-for-arts-sake thing :) I've been pleasantly surprised with how positively people in the 'sphere' seem to respond to that sort of thing - I went away from FoC for a few weeks and...a
alltom
10/04/2023, 12:39 AMI’m scrolling up here and seeing 7 replies, 14 replies, 16 replies. Is that a little, or are you talking about other channels? - Personally, I use Slack-like software all day for work and am burned out on it. So during the week I usually just save links to savor on weekends. Slows down my pace of communication significantly, though. 😅
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Ivan Reese
10/04/2023, 1:48 AMI'm stretched pretty thin, so I only weigh-in when I have either something trivial and jokey or something really substantial to add based on preexisting knowledge. Wish I could be more involved. - e
Eli Mellen
10/04/2023, 1:49 AMI’ll add that I do like that this place is sort of quiet. Chill vibes like a coffee shop on a slow day, or something. It is easy to keep up with, whereas some slacks I have to be in for work are like 100,000+ people shouting all at once - i
Ivan Reese
10/04/2023, 1:51 AMYeah, I'm quite happy with the level of activity here, and how it's managed to sustain that level of activity for like 4 years now. I don't wish the community were busier. - e
Eli Mellen
10/04/2023, 1:53 AMI think my (greedy) wish, that I wish for all communities, be nothing can be so perfect, is that it was a bit less broadcast oriented. That folks were able to engage with stuff more deeply…but that may well be a me thing than like a community thing - i
Ivan Reese
10/04/2023, 1:56 AMI do feel like it's more discussion oriented now than it was 2+ years ago. But that's a subtle thing and I have no data. I just remember there being so many links posted which weren't sparking discussion that we split #linking-together off into its own channel, so that the torrent of links wouldn't drown out #thinking-together