• Vladimir Gordeev

    Vladimir Gordeev

    2 years ago
    Unfortunately I need to leave this community. According to @Ivan Reese I've violated Code of Conduct by making following sexist comment:
    Men are more interested in things, women are more interested in people.
    Ivan Reese reached me out, carefully explained why this comment was sexist and politely asked me to not make any new posts of such kind. He also kindly asked me to not voice up an opposition to inclusion and diversity initiatives. I see nothing wrong with my comment. I based it on scientific article, reference to which I included in the comment. I did not oppose diversity and inclusion initiatives per se, I just cannot silently approve reasoning in group identity terms. I think that reasoning in terms of group identity is dangerous and I can politely argue why. It appears that even arguing why it is bad is not allowed here. For me this is too much. I would prefer to keep politics out of this community, but apparently it is not an option. Thus, I will be removed from this community sooner or later for another Code of Conduct violation. Correct solution to this problem for me would be to leave now. I will continue to work on generic tree editor. I hope to communicate with members of this community over twitter. Probably I would even create videos for #two-minute-week, just post them on twitter, not here. As a last message in this Slack I want to post a response that I was preparing to the deleted comments before I received a warning from Ivan Reese. I will post it as a comment to this message. Personally I would like to thank Ivan for acting in a polite and respectful manner, even though we clearly had disagreements. Bye!
    Vladimir Gordeev
    Nick Smith
    +8
    18 replies
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  • y

    yairchu

    2 years ago
    It’s good that possibly offensive/anti-inclusive comments are constrained to a specific channel, so that they don’t offend people in the other channels while the mod is participating and addressing any concerns. Good job Ivan and I think this might be a misunderstanding after all, which can happen in communities which do have people with diverse backgrounds and cultures
    y
    i
    +1
    3 replies
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  • Scott Anderson

    Scott Anderson

    2 years ago
    It bothers me that there are less women active in the group because there are a lot of women that are important and active in the space of FOC (I often reference work from women), so it's not only a theoretical or political concern for me. Sure not everyone that is part of the community is active, so membership is a little more diverse than the people that actively take place in discussion, but this is a mostly positive, optimistic community so I'd like to see more folks involved
    Scott Anderson
    i
    4 replies
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  • y

    yairchu

    2 years ago
    I remember a very interesting post from https://rachelbythebay.com/w/ where she argues that the better way to work towards diversity is to remove any blocks rather than actively soliciting “diverse” people. It’s late here but I’ll try to find the specific post tomorrow.
    y
    i
    +1
    4 replies
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  • Konrad Hinsen

    Konrad Hinsen

    2 years ago
    One thing that's important to remember is that the whole diversity/inclusivity/whatever-label-you-like movement is pretty young. It has identified a problem, but not fully understood it. And all the social engineering attempted to improve the situation should best be seen as experiments. Another important point is that this movement is very US-centric but not aware of that cognitive bias. @Vladimir Gordeev is completely right in considering himself a member of an underrepresented minority, coming from a different cultural background. He is also right in pointing out the risks of focusing on group identities. It's not just the history of the USSR that has plenty of warnings to offer, it's world history at large. Finally, this movement is conflating three kinds of issues that I think should best be considered separately: 1. Gender roles, which are still those of the agricultural age that lasted for millenia. The problem here is inertia, the goal of social engineering is accelerating a change that is likely to happen anyway. 2. Xenophobia, including the consequences of colonialism. These take different forms around the world and probably require case-by-case solutions. 3. Minorities that appear dysfunctional in the eyes of many, including gays, trans people, autists, physically disabled, and many more.
    Konrad Hinsen
    Scott Anderson
    +1
    7 replies
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  • j

    j. han

    2 years ago
    👋 Hi, I'm Jen, a master's student at Stanford studying HCI (hi @Will! nice running into you again) and I stumbled into this slack after a long internet spiral through http://chrisnovello.com/ and http://glench.com/ .... What a fascinating corner of the internet yall are in. I won't be attempting to speak on behalf of all of womankind here but just wanted to sprinkle some thoughts in: • There's a nontrivial amount of emotional/logistical labor required to bring about institutional change related to inclusion and diversity. The work is best done by people who are marginalized themselves but is also a big ask because they are often undercompensated, undervalued, and overburdened to champion these kinds of efforts. It's why tech companies like Google invest in and hire experts to come in and make that work happen. And it's why marginalized folks in your field may be involved in communities of their own and reluctant to join FoC, because they're a part of conversations that already center them and offer them leadership positions/positions of power. And that makes sense. What compels me to join FoC if I have my own thriving intellectual communities already? (Not sure yet, I'll have to wait and see). • So more, actionably: if you can't make them want to join/participate in your community yet, support them where they're at. What if FoC actively highlighted, cited, listened to, shared readings from, and collaborated with existing communities that are already building towards radically inclusive futures of computing (before drilling down on strategies to recruit that diversity into your own community)?
    j
    w
    +1
    4 replies
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  • j

    j. han

    2 years ago
    You might start here, with a podcast made by three black, feminist computer scientists from Stanford. https://soundcloud.com/three-unicorns It's a pleasure to listen to. Cheers!
    j
    1 replies
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  • jarm

    jarm

    2 years ago
    I just want to say I was expecting a massive backlash and readying to leave here myself when making my initial comment on the lack of diversity questions in the community survey. Now I'm glad I did because the dialogue here is extremely encouraging. So thank you to everyone for writing with patience, care and respect, and for proposing creative initiatives and reaching out to people. And thanks of course to @Ivan Reese who is putting in tremendous work here.
    jarm
    1 replies
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  • d

    Doug Moen

    2 years ago
    I'd like to create a Functional Programming channel. The Slack UI only lets me create private channels, so I guess I need to request this on Meta. The background is that somebody recently hijacked my functional programming thread on General with a diatribe attacking functional programming. I responded with a defence of functional programming, written in a similar (inflammatory) style, which you may have seen. I wrote in that style to make a point, because this has happened to me several times. While my diatribe was fun to write, maybe some of you want me to stop posting this material to General. Also, it's hard to have a discussion when people are shouting you down. It may be good if the functional programming community has a "safe space" in which to have discussions.
    d
    1 replies
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  • y

    yairchu

    2 years ago
    Also perhaps to help alleviate from inflammatory styles, I would like to request again a channel where we can vent our complaints about the present of programming.
    y
    i
    +2
    7 replies
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